Flarm in the US this summer

I don't recall seeing this mentioned here but apparently Flarms are
now available in the US.
See discussion on Williams Forum:
http://www.soaringnet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2404

From Rex Mayes:

We would like to examine the level of interest in using FLARM in
gliders flying at WSC to improve safety with collision avoidance
technology.

Learn about FLARM.

http://www.flarm.org/index_en.html

Flarm is being introduced to the US market this Summer. It is an $800
alternative to a $3000+ transponder/ PCAS system.

The downside is that Flarm will only interact with other flarm units.
It will not see tansponder signals. Tcas and Pcas will not see Flarm
so it does not solve Glider/ GA or Glider/ airliner conflicts.

Flarm does however help with the more likely event of Glider to Glider
mid air potential in gaggle flying or ridge soaring on the Whites and
the great convergence of the Mendos.

Flarm also offers the ability to see what other gliders are doing. It
will locate a glider and indicate that gliders rate of climb. Thus
possibly reducing the need to query another pilot on the radio as
often.

Flarm also has IGC approved flight recording capability.

We have been following the development of FLARM since our visit to the
AERO in 2005. Since then, it has become mandatory in several countries
and in many others, it is widely used and encouraged. We think it is
time for all glider pilots to consider their traffic collision
exposure and what they are doing to mitigate it.

We are not convinced that FLARM is the answer but we are considering
installing FLARM in the WSC Fleet including towplanes.

It only makes sense to install FLARM if everybody does it.

Please take time to learn about FLARM and let WSC know your opinion
either on this forum or privately to .

We are very interested in hearing from every pilot who flies in this
region.

Thanks for reading this and for your careful consideration.

Rex Mayes and the Staff at Williams Soaring Center

Ramy wrote:
I don't recall seeing this mentioned here but apparently Flarms are
now available in the US.
See discussion on Williams Forum:
http://www.soaringnet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2404

From Rex Mayes:

We would like to examine the level of interest in using FLARM in
gliders flying at WSC to improve safety with collision avoidance
technology.

Learn about FLARM.

http://www.flarm.org/index_en.html

Flarm is being introduced to the US market this Summer. It is an $800
alternative to a $3000+ transponder/ PCAS system.

The downside is that Flarm will only interact with other flarm units.
It will not see tansponder signals. Tcas and Pcas will not see Flarm
so it does not solve Glider/ GA or Glider/ airliner conflicts.

I think promoting it as an IGC recorder with collision avoidance
technology would be an easy sell to pilots that want an IGC recorder.
For $800, you are getting the avoidance capability almost free.

Still, that would make it's installation in gliders go at a slow pace,
since so many of us already have IGC recorders. Personally, I have no
interest in one unless I were to fly at a very busy glider area like
Minden (I already have an IGC recorder, transponder, and PCAS). Perhaps
the commercial soaring operators and clubs in those areas could rent
FLARMS to visiting pilots, even make them mandatory for getting a tow.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

FLARM is a major distraction in the US for people who are concerned about
collision avoidance. Unlike Europe, the biggest threat to gliders in the US
is other VFR or IFR traffic. If you want to upgrade your glider to minimize
these threats, you need to use a technology that is compatible with the US
ATC system; either conventional transponders and/or PCAS systems or
hopefully in the not too distant future ADS-B.

Mike Schumann

"Ramy" wrote in message
...
I don't recall seeing this mentioned here but apparently Flarms are
now available in the US.
See discussion on Williams Forum:
http://www.soaringnet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2404

From Rex Mayes:

We would like to examine the level of interest in using FLARM in
gliders flying at WSC to improve safety with collision avoidance
technology.

Learn about FLARM.

http://www.flarm.org/index_en.html

Flarm is being introduced to the US market this Summer. It is an $800
alternative to a $3000+ transponder/ PCAS system.

The downside is that Flarm will only interact with other flarm units.
It will not see tansponder signals. Tcas and Pcas will not see Flarm
so it does not solve Glider/ GA or Glider/ airliner conflicts.

Flarm does however help with the more likely event of Glider to Glider
mid air potential in gaggle flying or ridge soaring on the Whites and
the great convergence of the Mendos.

Flarm also offers the ability to see what other gliders are doing. It
will locate a glider and indicate that gliders rate of climb. Thus
possibly reducing the need to query another pilot on the radio as
often.

Flarm also has IGC approved flight recording capability.

We have been following the development of FLARM since our visit to the
AERO in 2005. Since then, it has become mandatory in several countries
and in many others, it is widely used and encouraged. We think it is
time for all glider pilots to consider their traffic collision
exposure and what they are doing to mitigate it.

We are not convinced that FLARM is the answer but we are considering
installing FLARM in the WSC Fleet including towplanes.

It only makes sense to install FLARM if everybody does it.

Please take time to learn about FLARM and let WSC know your opinion
either on this forum or privately to .

We are very interested in hearing from every pilot who flies in this
region.

Thanks for reading this and for your careful consideration.

Rex Mayes and the Staff at Williams Soaring Center

At 10:36 22 July 2009, Mike Schumann wrote:
FLARM is a major distraction in the US for people who are concerned about

collision avoidance. Unlike Europe, the biggest threat to gliders in
the
US
is other VFR or IFR traffic. If you want to upgrade your glider to
minimize
these threats, you need to use a technology that is compatible with the
US

ATC system; either conventional transponders and/or PCAS systems or
hopefully in the not too distant future ADS-B.

Mike Schumann


That's the kind of ass-munch BS that we'd expect from some f*wit at the
FAA/CAA/EASA.

Please tell me you're not - then we might be able to educate you.

;o)

Please, no rec.aviation.fistfight!

Thanks for posting that, Ramy and for bringing this up, Rex.
FLARM would be absolutely fantastic in areas like the Inyo and White
Mountains, the Sierra Nevada, the Wasatch, the Appalachian chain,
under big cloud streets, in glider contests... Since we never fly in
any of those places, it's not much use at all really.
A while ago Bob Semans came up with "Procedure Alpha" to use on the
Whites. While serving to make people more aware of other traffic, the
constant stream of position reports on a typical weekend afternoon
makes for too much noise in the cockpit. Every time I run the Whites,
I think about how much better it would be with FLARM in every glider.
We all understand that glider pilots are attracted to the same lines
of lift. Having used FLARM for a few years in Australia, I'd say it is
a great tool. FLARM is a logger too! You can attach a FLARM-NAV,
Butterfly Display or PDA to it and have a complete logger, nav and
collision avoidance system for about 1500 dollars. Here's a link to
FLARM-NAV and Butterfly, in case they're new to you.
http://www.swiftavionics.com.au/prod.../1/Sailplanes/
Unlike transponder-based collision avoidance, FLARM doesn't panic
when you're on tow, flying "lead and follow" with another glider and
doesn't ignore signals from near enough to actually cause a collision.
I own a transponder, which is very nice to have around Minden or Jean.
Haven't found a PCAS that I'd install yet.
Think of how many times you've seen another aircraft up close. What
percentage of those were NOT gliders? I'm guessing that if you
actually remember how many gliders you came close to, that number is
pretty low. But we're so used to seeing other gliders that we tend
forget about them after they pass.
Could somebody please post the total number of glider mid-air
collisions in the USA, with a tally of glider/glider versus glider/
other? Anyone would think that a certain AS and Hawker collision
represented 100% of all accidents.
Jim

On Jul 22, 3:36*am, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
FLARM is a major distraction in the US for people who are concerned about
collision avoidance. *Unlike Europe, the biggest threat to gliders in the US
is other VFR or IFR traffic. *If you want to upgrade your glider to minimize
these threats, you need to use a technology that is compatible with the US
ATC system; *either conventional transponders and/or PCAS systems or
hopefully in the not too distant future ADS-B.

Mike Schumann


General aviation and airline traffic is a serious concern in the U.S.
and my glider has a transponder and pcas unit.

Glider traffic is also a problem as sailplanes want to fly in the same
location, flying the busy white and inyo mountains can be scary with
all the hard to see gliders flying fast down the cloud streets, head
on closure rates well over 200 knots give you little time to see and
avoid.

Having flown in Australia with flarm, I believe that flarm is useful
tool and greatly enhances safety.

I understand that you can incorporate flam in your see you mobile
display, so you wouldn't have to add more clutter in the cockpit.

Jim

At 10:36 22 July 2009, Mike Schumann wrote:
FLARM is a major distraction in the US for people who are concerned about
collision avoidance. Unlike Europe, the biggest threat to gliders in the
US is other VFR or IFR traffic. If you want to upgrade your glider to
minimize these threats, you need to use a technology that is compatible
with the US
ATC system; either conventional transponders and/or PCAS systems or
hopefully in the not too distant future ADS-B.

Mike Schumann

Experiences certainly vary. I have had four close calls. ALL with other
gliders. Two with the same plane. Two were in thermals (one, my bad
entry, the other, someone elses less than optimum entry), the other two
were head on, 2000 feet or more below cloudbase. I was westbound on both
of the near head-ons. And they were both less than 20 feet off of direct
head-on, and less than 100 feet vertical as we passed after push or pull
to avoid. The good news is, the second person saw the first to respond
and responded in the opposite direction. First time, I saw him above me
and I pushed. The second time, I saw his wings bending down, so I pulled.
These were two years apart and both at National soaring contests.

Yes, FLARM doesn't talk to transponders. But for the flying I do most, I
need to know about gliders more than I need to know about powered traffic.
So, I would rather have a FLARM and work to getting my friends to have them
too. I can move a FLARM around in my fleet much easier than I can move a
transponder, encoder, and PCAS. And I can do it legally without having to
get the installation recertified every time I go to fly a new plane.

And if you look at the mid-airs involving gliders, most are glider to
glider. There are a few glider and towplane, several glider-jet ones
(LS-4 and A7, F4 and 2-32, and of course, ASG-29 and Hawker). Not to say
there haven't been many close calls (they aren't "near misses" as
everyone talks about. They are "near hits".)

Get what you want, but try to keep your eyes outside!

Steve Leonard

I feel FLARM is the wrong instrument for use in the USA. We are being
looked at very closely by the FAA because of some mid-airs and the
complaints by commercial pilots. Transponders and PCAS give us the
anti-collision info for ALL AIRCRAFT, not just the few gliders that
have FLARM.

I have flown in the Alps for three years now. At St. Auban all of the
gliders in their fleet have FLARM. Flying in the area close to the
airfield the FLARM system gives you virtually 100% warnings about
surrounding gliders. BUT, get 20 miles away from the field and a high
number of gliders do not have FLARM. I have had a couple of near
misses because I was trying to identify a FLARM warning for a plane on
my left when a glider without FLARM was bearing down on me from the
right.

I don't believe FLARM will ever have enough penetration in the fleet
to be worth the cost and cockpit work load. Just read all the
procratinators who won't install a transponder now because ADS-B is
the future. I think the evidence is that ADS-B is a looooooooooong
way off. Of course, even when ADS-B is available it will be more
expensive than a transponder is now. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Again, transponders and PCAS come much closer in the USA.

Ok....burn me.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

ADS-B, when it is available, will have all the capabilities of FLARM and
will be cheaper than conventional transponders. Just like FLARM, ADS-B is
not a panacea. Unlike FLARM, it will warn you about all ADS-B and
transponder equipped aircraft in your area, if you have the transceiver
connected to a flight computer or other moving map display and you are
within range of an ADS-B ground station. However, just like FLARM, the GPS
resolution and update rates are not sufficient to be able to rely on this
device for collision avoidance in a gaggle.

Mike Schumann

"Guy" wrote in message
...
I feel FLARM is the wrong instrument for use in the USA. We are being
looked at very closely by the FAA because of some mid-airs and the
complaints by commercial pilots. Transponders and PCAS give us the
anti-collision info for ALL AIRCRAFT, not just the few gliders that
have FLARM.

I have flown in the Alps for three years now. At St. Auban all of the
gliders in their fleet have FLARM. Flying in the area close to the
airfield the FLARM system gives you virtually 100% warnings about
surrounding gliders. BUT, get 20 miles away from the field and a high
number of gliders do not have FLARM. I have had a couple of near
misses because I was trying to identify a FLARM warning for a plane on
my left when a glider without FLARM was bearing down on me from the
right.

I don't believe FLARM will ever have enough penetration in the fleet
to be worth the cost and cockpit work load. Just read all the
procratinators who won't install a transponder now because ADS-B is
the future. I think the evidence is that ADS-B is a looooooooooong
way off. Of course, even when ADS-B is available it will be more
expensive than a transponder is now. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Again, transponders and PCAS come much closer in the USA.

Ok....burn me.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

Given where I fly and my limited panel space, I would only buy a Flarm
if it offered the capabilities of a Zaon MRX as well. Perhaps Flarm
and Zaon should get together and discuss building a single, small
device that detects Flarm mode, A/C/S transponder modes, and ADS-B
mode?

-John