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#1
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Puchaz spin count 23 and counting
Bill Daniels said, *Rather than blame the glider, I would point the finger at training that doesnt equip pilots with the skills needed to fly these gliders* I tend to agree. Have umpteen hours in Puchii. I have always found them very predictable if flown within C of G limits. Have never had a problem with spin recovery if the correct technique is employed. If treated like a Blanik (when auto rotating) and back pressure alone is released, they definitely will not come out. The full correct drill must be applied. I have found no recovery problem with 8 or more turn spins during aerobatic sequences. HOwever, as indicated it probably would not hurt for a recap by those with the skills regarding any nasty that may be lurking. Remove the doubt once and for all. Henry -- henell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ] - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly - |
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I've never flown one and haven't looked at the manual - is the recovery you've
employed detailed in the manual? |
#3
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#4
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#5
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"Edward Colver" wrote in message . co.uk... In article , (henell) wrote: Bill Daniels said, I have found no recovery problem with 8 or more turn spins during aerobatic sequences. I didn't write the above. Somebody else did. Bill Daniels In one of the many messages on Puchaczs over the last two weeks, I believe someone said that the Puchacz was only certified by the Poles for a two turn full spin. If I am correct, then maybe the message above shows why this glider has acquired some of its bad reputation. Pilots should stick to the manufacturers or flying authorities limits. I know of one instructor who was asked to start to spin a Puchacz at 800 feet above the ground as part of his annual instructor check. There is no room for error if you are deliberately initiating a full spin at such a low level. In the UK a great deal of all spin training is done in Puchaczs. At our club we have three Puchaczs. We routinely have visitors who come to our club and ask to do spinning because they believe that the two seaters used in their clubs are incapable of proper spin training. Twenty years ago I was thermalling with an instructor over a ridge. We were approx 500 feet above the trees in a Bocian with the instructor flying in a weak thermal. Without any warning to me, on my fifth flight ever, the Bocian went in to a full spin. We were very close to the trees by the time the instructor recovered. This episode convinced me that full spin training is essential. There are many people who have been flying low and slow trying to extend their flight time and have suddenly found themselves in incipient or full spins. How well they recover from these frightening episodes is entirely dependant on how well they have been trained to recover from full spins. In summary I believe that the Puchaczs poor reputation is not deserved. A one or two turn spin done with plenty of height is not dangerous. |
#6
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Bill Daniels said, I have found no recovery problem with 8 or more turn spins during aerobatic sequences. I didn't write the above. Somebody else did. Bill Daniels Apologies. Using "cut and paste" can lead to mistakes. |
#7
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"I know of one instructor who was asked to start to spin a Puchacz at
800 feet above the ground as part of his annual instructor check. There is no room for error if you are deliberately initiating a full spin at such a low level." Wouldn't it be better to initiate the practice spin at 3,000 feet, then check the altitude at the bottom of the recovery? I am very confident in my ability to recognize and recover from a spin, but I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER enter one intentionally at 800 feet AGL, if for no other reason than spinning in the pattern would be frowned on at most airports I frequent. Nor would I put my life into someone else's hands quite so readily. From 800 feet there is very little opportunity to take control and sort out a recovery gone awry. The most surprising aspect of the Puchacz discussion to date is the number of accidents involving instructors. This led me to believe that perhaps there was something amiss with the aircraft (which may be the case). But clearly there are training practices in place in Britain that should be scrutinized. Frankly, if a CFI asked me to spin from 800 agl, I'd consider it a test of my judgment, the only appropriate response being, "Let's land and take another tow." I've always thought the Brits pretty sensible. Is this a form of hazing among the fraternity of BGA flight instructors? It is very difficult to justify such extreme measures for the sake of proficiency. (Will he keep his head on straight when the ground is rushing madly at him? And if he doesn't, then what?) Or is it a vestige left over from a time when aircraft design was less regulated and spin entries were common? Or both? You've heard of social Darwinism? Perhaps this is organizational Royalism: training philosophies shaped by too many generations of inbreeding.... I have to say, from outside looking in, it's just a little frightening. |
#8
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In article ,
Chris OCallaghan wrote: "I know of one instructor who was asked to start to spin a Puchacz at 800 feet above the ground as part of his annual instructor check. Presumably this was over the radio, and nobody liked him anyway? I read some of these altitudes folks are doing this stuff, and I put my head in my hands... When I did aerobatics, it was always 5000ft floor (expected termination of the manuever) if you had chutes, 3000 feet floor if no chutes. |
#9
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I just read Bill Dean's post and the quote from the BGA instructor's manual, to wit:
"As this training progresses, it is necessary to introduce brief spins where the ground is noticeably close. This is to ensure that the trainee will take the correct recovery action even when the nose is down and the ground approaching. A very experienced instructor flying a docile two seater in ideal conditions may be prepared to initiate a brief spin from 800'. A less docile two seater with a less experienced instructor, or less than ideal conditions, should raise the minimum height considerably." Dumb. |
#10
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Chris,
When, where and with whom did you train as a gliding instructor? Have you any experience of the K13, which is typically the type of glider which would be used in the U.K. for this type of training? Which type of glider do you use when you give training in spin entry and recovery? Have you any experience of gliding accident investigation, or acquaintance with those who have? Do you have any idea how the U.K. record of solo stall/spin accidents compares with that in the U.S.A.? (I don't). In other words, do you really know what you are talking about when you criticise U.K. methods of stall/spin training? Bill. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message om... I just read Bill Dean's post and the quote from the BGA instructor's manual, to wit: "As this training progresses, it is necessary to introduce brief spins where the ground is noticeably close. This is to ensure that the trainee will take the correct recovery action even when the nose is down and the ground approaching. A very experienced instructor flying a docile two seater in ideal conditions may be prepared to initiate a brief spin from 800'. A less docile two seater with a less experienced instructor, or less than ideal conditions, should raise the minimum height considerably." Dumb. |
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