Does anyone use a tug tow hook that releases automatically whenglider kites?

This topic was buried in a drifting degenerate thread. I'm wondering if anyone knows more about the tow hook innovation mentioned below by UH.

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:31:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Why does the pilot need to pull the release if the glider kites? Why is the release for a deadly tow position not fully automatic? Is a simple purely mechanical, totally foolproof and 100% automatic release not possible? As the guy in the glider, I would be fine with a 100% automatic release. If I kite, release me immediately.


On Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:05:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:

There was a design and prototype of a release like this created many years ago and published, I believe, in Soaring magazine. I know if no one that has adopted this which makes it fairly clear that this is not perceived as a huge problem.

The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.

Mike

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:58:56 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.

How do you do a low tow when both glider and tug are still in ground effect at launch?

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:47:20 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:58:56 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:

The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.



How do you do a low tow when both glider and tug are still in ground effect at launch?

If you are both in low tow you aren't kiting. Then, when the tow plane starts climbing, you ease down to the low tow position. No big deal.

Apparently standard ops in Australia - and some other "civilized" countries..

However, since kiting upsets are pretty much limited to older, low wing loading gliders, the problem is somewhat limited. In the US, my guess is that it is a threat from mainly 1-26s and 2-33s. My solution: careful briefing of 1-26 pilots, and chop up all the remaining 2-33s.

Kirk
66

On Monday, February 10, 2014 8:49:58 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

However, since kiting upsets are pretty much limited to older, low wing loading gliders, the problem is somewhat limited. In the US, my guess is that it is a threat from mainly 1-26s and 2-33s. My solution: careful briefing of 1-26 pilots, and chop up all the remaining 2-33s.


Are you saying that high performance gliders are incapable of kiting, or that the pilot of a high performance glider will never pull back on the stick at launch in ground effect?

Here is a kiting fatality with a Grob 103 Twin http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...11X11267&key=2

Both pilots were experienced and current. Excerpt from the NTSB narrative:
"The pilot of the tow plane reported 5,078 hours of total flight experience, 1,245 hours of which were in the Cessna 305A. The (tow ed.) pilot reported 80 hours of flight experience in the 90 days prior to the accident, and 25 hours in the 30 days prior; all in the Cessna 305A. On October 5, 1998, the pilot performed 13 glider tows prior to the accident flight.

The glider pilot held a commercial pilot's certificate with ratings for airplane single engine land, glider, and instrument airplane. His most recent FAA second class medical certificate was issued June 26, 1997. The pilot reported 440 hours of flight experience on that date. A review of the glider pilot's logbook revealed 859 hours of total flight experience, of which 121 hours were in gliders."

On Monday, February 10, 2014 8:55:46 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

Are you saying that high performance gliders are incapable of kiting, or that the pilot of a high performance glider will never pull back on the stick at launch in ground effect?

If you do some research on kiting, you will find a good article in the BGA magazine about it.

To be pedantic, Kiting is defined as an uncontrollable pitchup and rise of the glider on tow - once it starts it happens so fast that it yanks the towplane tail up faster than the tow pilot can release. Most glass ships (due to wingloading, elevator authority, etc) appear to not be susceptible to this problem. Older light wingloading gliders are.

What the G-103 did in this accident is not kiting (technically), but just flying too high on tow (and totally the glider PIC's error) - the tow pilot should have released as soon as he reached the aft stop on the elevator. But with a Schweizer tow hook, that is damn near impossible unless it has the inverted mod.

There is also a long discussion somewhere (RAS, BGA?) about automatic releases, and the consensus was that it would be difficult to implement. Personally, I would imagine that a release triggered by hitting the aft stick stop might work, but it gets complicated on the ground, while landing, etc. Hugh potential for dropping ropes all over the place! It would have to sense the presence of a glider (tension on the rope) and the stick full aft and the towplane being airborne - then probably have to be a pyrotechnic guillotine to be reliable. Yeah, good luck getting a 337 for that past the FAA!

If a pilot pulls back on the stick that hard during launch when I'm towing, and I survive the crash, I am going to beat the **** out of him and his instructor(s) with a broken Pawnee wing strut. I've had a student pitch up in a 2-33 (solo) to do a soft release (argghhh!) and pull my Pawnee's tail up (during a pattern tow, no less). He released just before I did. He got seriously talked to after landing.

Yes, glider pilots can kill tow pilots. As a glider pilot you should think of that every time you get hooked up for a tow. And fly your tow like a damn Blue Angel!

Kirk
66

By the way, you can also give your towpilot a thrill by pulling way off to the side - and if he is stupid enough to keep full rudder in and try to fight you, you can stall his vertical stab/rudder - and off he goes into Mr Toad's wild ride as his plane loses all yaw stability all at once!

Unless I'm told the glider is going to box the wake, I pretty much keep my feet off the rudders and let the glider point me wherever he wants...

On Monday, February 10, 2014 7:49:58 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:47:20 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:58:56 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:



The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.







How do you do a low tow when both glider and tug are still in ground effect at launch?



If you are both in low tow you aren't kiting. Then, when the tow plane starts climbing, you ease down to the low tow position. No big deal.



Apparently standard ops in Australia - and some other "civilized" countries.



However, since kiting upsets are pretty much limited to older, low wing loading gliders, the problem is somewhat limited. In the US, my guess is that it is a threat from mainly 1-26s and 2-33s. My solution: careful briefing of 1-26 pilots, and chop up all the remaining 2-33s.



Kirk

66

My KA6CR lite to fly high - I have to keep the stick forward on tow -

ZEN

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:58:56 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world. Mike

And in the US. Our club in New York uses low tow as standard ops procedure. I'm not sure who else in US does.
UH

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:58:56 PM UTC-8, Mike the Strike wrote:
The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.



Mike

I haven't tried low tow with my cg hook since it is up in the main wheel well. How does that (low tow) work with cg hook configurations? Any problems, or just chafing of the underbelly? Obviously, the tow rope has to extend forward on either the left or right side of the fuselage. Don't see flying two with constant yaw to prevent chafing. What about release? Any unintended consequences? I can maybe see the weak link rubbing up against the wheel well doors.

Also, our club has a PW-6 with chin hook. POH says - "Flying under the towing airplane downwash is not recommended since the towing cable rubs the fuselage front part."

Not sure low tow is the be-all, end-all answer.

Eric Bick -

On Monday, February 10, 2014 12:47:04 PM UTC-5, Eric Bick (1DB) wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:58:56 PM UTC-8, Mike the Strike wrote: The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world. Mike I haven't tried low tow with my cg hook since it is up in the main wheel well. How does that (low tow) work with cg hook configurations? Any problems, or just chafing of the underbelly? Obviously, the tow rope has to extend forward on either the left or right side of the fuselage. Don't see flying two with constant yaw to prevent chafing. What about release? Any unintended consequences? I can maybe see the weak link rubbing up against the wheel well doors. Also, our club has a PW-6 with chin hook. POH says - "Flying under the towing airplane downwash is not recommended since the towing cable rubs the fuselage front part." Not sure low tow is the be-all, end-all answer. Eric Bick -

How much damage do you think the surface of the tow rope will do if it touches the belly?
My experience is absolutely none. We do use an adaptor on our ropes to convert from big (Schweizer) rings to Tost. It is about 4 ft long so there is no metal contact.
UH