Now the neocons are inventng forgeries

What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wants to know.

In article ,
"Brett" wrote:

"ArtKramr" wants to know.



An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
embarrassment, IMHO).


I have to laugh (and cry) at both sides for their shenanigans in this
campaign.

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Brett" wrote:

"ArtKramr" wants to know.



An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
embarrassment, IMHO).


I have to laugh (and cry) at both sides for their shenanigans in this
campaign.

Actually, I believe Terry "Horse's Ass" McAuliffe (why the dems kept his
sorry butt around after getting shellacked in the 2002 elections is a real
wonder) or one of his primary henchmen has already raised that scenario. One
day he, along with Tom Harkin (who IIRC was the guy who got lambasted by his
fellow dems years ago when he was vying for the Presidential nomination
himself, and tried to claim he was a Vietnam vet--only to find out his only
exposure to Vietnam had been to deliver a couple of aircraft to Danang as a
ferry pilot) is using those memos to try and hammer GWB, the next they start
ruminating that maybe the Bush campaign planted the memos themselves. What a
comic opera the DNC has devolved into these days...

Brooks

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote:
In article ,
"Brett" wrote:

"ArtKramr" wants to know.



An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
embarrassment, IMHO).

If Terry McAuliffe didn't have a position in the Democratic organization you
might be able to convince someone. But since the Democrats have Terry on the
payroll you have to go with them as being the source.

In article , ArtKramr
wrote:

What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Now we have Artie chiming in...

And, ya know what, Artie, based on the logic that you have shown
elsewhere lately, neither one of these guys should be President of the
United States because the military experience of both men does not
include flights over Europe as a bombadier in a B-26 so they both are
obviously spineless, coward, wannabes.

What I find so off-****ing in this whole thing is that my worse dream
seems to be coming true...

You see, I'm a Kerry supporter. A few months ago, it seemed to me that
the race was Kerry's to win- unless he screwed up. It now appears to me
that he has. Damn.

Here's my thoughts on the military situation on these two guys. Take it
or leave it and **** ya if ya can't take a joke. John Kerry won some
medals. Seems to me that he earned them. But, in and of itself, medals
don't mean a heck of a lot except that a man did something exceptional
on a particular day. He may or may not be of overall greater
character. The awards could be a symbol of a man's inner gallantry and
character. I choose to view it this way. However, they could mean that
a criminal, amoral ******* sucked it up and did something right on a
particular day.

About medals in general, I have to differ to my friend, Ray. He
started as a groundpounder back in Korea as a 19 year old kid and,
using his GI Bill, became a teacher but eventually reentered the
Reserves because he just plain liked the Army.and being a soldier. He
eventually was the 'oldest drill sergeant in the Army' at age 56 and
then retired out of the Army as a first sergeant at age 62. He was in
at the beginning of Desert Storm and, as one after another of his drill
sergeants was called active, he prepared himself to go even though he
was an old man who had clearly done his duty in the past. A soldier
serves and he was getting ready. He cried when he retired. Not that he
was happy but that he was sad that he could no longer be a soldier.

Not sure if Ray won any medals other than the basics because he never
talked about them and I never saw any on his memento boards he has up
in his house. Seems as well as combat, he really shined at dealing with
all the government paper that the Army generates. As a paper pushin'
soldier, he said he pushed through lots of awards that may or may not
have been earned. He said that the basic rule on awards is that the
'worse the war is going, the more medals are awarded". He gave me some
figures which I don't have to share right now but it was amazing to me
the number of medals given out in Vietnam as opposed to Korea and WWII.

Kerry's medals may or may not mean ****. I think that they do but you
are quite welcome to disagree with me. Seems that the strategy to focus
on military experience has backfired badly on his campaign. This
cockamamy thing on 60 Minutes trying to paint the drunken fratboy of a
man that was W as a young man as some sort of AWOL Daddy's boy. is
ludacrous. If you are going to make charges, at least make sure that
they are relly true and substantiated. Geez, he probably was and many
others used influence or class or raw brains to get out of active
service. Do the names Dan "Mr. Potatoe Head" Quayle and Bill "I got
the brains to get into Oxford" Clinton ring a bell? And, to think, the
American people elected Clinton to be Commander-in-Chief of the Armed
Forces- twice! If you don't call that military service, you don't
believe in the fundamental idea of a civilian controlled military as
provided by the Constitution.

Which leads me to W. I didn't vote for him but it seems by our American
system, very few more people voted for him as for my man Gore and W
became President. By definition, W is commander of the military and, as
military service goes, that's enough for me. Personally, I am against
him for his decisions now as commander in chief and not as a guy who
may or may not have ditched some drills 30 years ago. (I guess when
your old man is a Senator, head of the CIA and rich as all hell, you
kinda get a feeling of entitlement to a few Mulligans, much like Bubba
used to do frequently on the golf course.)

I hope I've laid out the background of my off-****edness. I think the
"Swift Boat Veterans" stuff was and is a diversion to change the
subject from W's performance as President and Commander in Chief. This
new stuff about W's service should never have been brought up because I
don't know if it makes any difference. And the fact that there is a
really good chance that the documents were complete bull**** makes it
even worse. I'm not happy with Kerry but I sure don't like the
direction W has us going.

Remember when I said it was my opinion the the race was Kerry's to
lose? I'm afraid he has just screwed the pooch.

ObAviation: I'm riding my motorbike up Whidbey Island today and hope I
see some cool Navy stuff flying overhead as I go by the Naval Air
Station.

raoul

It seems to me that Vietnam is a negative for both candidates.

Faced with the threat of conscription into land combat in Vietnam they both
volunteered for a job that they expected to keep them safe and comfortable.
Bush's plan worked, which is the end of the story, for everyone but the
tinfoil hat brigade. Kerry's was only partially successful, which makes
things more complex, but not much.

The big difference is that whereas Bush admits to a misspent youth and wants
to talk about what he has done recently, Kerry has made Vietnam a major part
of his campaign.

Personally I think Bush is correct and people should decided on the basis of
what the candidates have done recently.

I'm a Bush supporter. But I think that what you just said makes more
sense than most of the political posts on this newsgroup. I'm proud to
have you as a political/philosophical adversary. And an American.

Jim Thomas

Raoul wrote in message ...
In article , ArtKramr
wrote:

What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Now we have Artie chiming in...

And, ya know what, Artie, based on the logic that you have shown
elsewhere lately, neither one of these guys should be President of the
United States because the military experience of both men does not
include flights over Europe as a bombadier in a B-26 so they both are
obviously spineless, coward, wannabes.

What I find so off-****ing in this whole thing is that my worse dream
seems to be coming true...

You see, I'm a Kerry supporter. A few months ago, it seemed to me that
the race was Kerry's to win- unless he screwed up. It now appears to me
that he has. Damn.

Here's my thoughts on the military situation on these two guys. Take it
or leave it and **** ya if ya can't take a joke. John Kerry won some
medals. Seems to me that he earned them. But, in and of itself, medals
don't mean a heck of a lot except that a man did something exceptional
on a particular day. He may or may not be of overall greater
character. The awards could be a symbol of a man's inner gallantry and
character. I choose to view it this way. However, they could mean that
a criminal, amoral ******* sucked it up and did something right on a
particular day.

About medals in general, I have to differ to my friend, Ray. He
started as a groundpounder back in Korea as a 19 year old kid and,
using his GI Bill, became a teacher but eventually reentered the
Reserves because he just plain liked the Army.and being a soldier. He
eventually was the 'oldest drill sergeant in the Army' at age 56 and
then retired out of the Army as a first sergeant at age 62. He was in
at the beginning of Desert Storm and, as one after another of his drill
sergeants was called active, he prepared himself to go even though he
was an old man who had clearly done his duty in the past. A soldier
serves and he was getting ready. He cried when he retired. Not that he
was happy but that he was sad that he could no longer be a soldier.

Not sure if Ray won any medals other than the basics because he never
talked about them and I never saw any on his memento boards he has up
in his house. Seems as well as combat, he really shined at dealing with
all the government paper that the Army generates. As a paper pushin'
soldier, he said he pushed through lots of awards that may or may not
have been earned. He said that the basic rule on awards is that the
'worse the war is going, the more medals are awarded". He gave me some
figures which I don't have to share right now but it was amazing to me
the number of medals given out in Vietnam as opposed to Korea and WWII.

Kerry's medals may or may not mean ****. I think that they do but you
are quite welcome to disagree with me. Seems that the strategy to focus
on military experience has backfired badly on his campaign. This
cockamamy thing on 60 Minutes trying to paint the drunken fratboy of a
man that was W as a young man as some sort of AWOL Daddy's boy. is
ludacrous. If you are going to make charges, at least make sure that
they are relly true and substantiated. Geez, he probably was and many
others used influence or class or raw brains to get out of active
service. Do the names Dan "Mr. Potatoe Head" Quayle and Bill "I got
the brains to get into Oxford" Clinton ring a bell? And, to think, the
American people elected Clinton to be Commander-in-Chief of the Armed
Forces- twice! If you don't call that military service, you don't
believe in the fundamental idea of a civilian controlled military as
provided by the Constitution.

Which leads me to W. I didn't vote for him but it seems by our American
system, very few more people voted for him as for my man Gore and W
became President. By definition, W is commander of the military and, as
military service goes, that's enough for me. Personally, I am against
him for his decisions now as commander in chief and not as a guy who
may or may not have ditched some drills 30 years ago. (I guess when
your old man is a Senator, head of the CIA and rich as all hell, you
kinda get a feeling of entitlement to a few Mulligans, much like Bubba
used to do frequently on the golf course.)

I hope I've laid out the background of my off-****edness. I think the
"Swift Boat Veterans" stuff was and is a diversion to change the
subject from W's performance as President and Commander in Chief. This
new stuff about W's service should never have been brought up because I
don't know if it makes any difference. And the fact that there is a
really good chance that the documents were complete bull**** makes it
even worse. I'm not happy with Kerry but I sure don't like the
direction W has us going.

Remember when I said it was my opinion the the race was Kerry's to
lose? I'm afraid he has just screwed the pooch.

ObAviation: I'm riding my motorbike up Whidbey Island today and hope I
see some cool Navy stuff flying overhead as I go by the Naval Air
Station.

raoul

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.

Evidence? Lots of pretty solid evidence supporting the forgery claims (not
just the typeface, but now the fact that one of the addressees was not even
in the service at the time the supposed memo was written to him) has been
made known, but you curiously have nothing beyond "Dan Rather says it was
so"? One thing is for certain, though--you are indeed an authority on the
subject of "lying", given your propensity to do it yourself so much.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Art -

Do you have any direct experience analyzing documents? Have you looked at
the documents in question? Did you have a typewriter in your B-26? If not,
you are not qualified and have no right to comment on the authenticity of
the documents in question. Take it somewhere else, wannabe!

Jack G.



"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer