Indonesian Bawean Island Incident (2 F-16B vs 5 F/A-18s)

Hi All,

I'd like to know more information about last month's (August) alleged
Indonesian Airspace violation by VFA-22 Hornets.

What I know so far is that 5 F/A-18s on a CAP strayed into Commercial
airspace, got too close to a Bouraq 737, the pilot of which reported
the incident to the ground.

Bali control, who have the F/A-18s on radar, sent 2 F-16Bs to
intercept. The 7 aircrafts did a (very?) short acm session until one
of the F-16s got bracketed and rocked its wings.

The F/A-18s then stated their intentions and asked the F-16s to stay
away from the CV.

Indonesian media is reporting that the F/A-18s radar was locking on to
the F-16s, and therefore acting hostile toward the F-16s. This
incident have done no good to improving the public's perception of the
US in Jakarta.

That is all the info I have. Anybody know more?

What is the standard procedure for CV aircrafts on CAP enroute through
territorial waters of another country? Was this really what actually
happen?

Thanks,

Bram

Bram,

First of all, I don't think that you'll be getting more than speculation
from most folks in this group--including me.

Sounds like Indonesian media is trying to stir up hate and discontent toward
the U.S. Military--a popular thing for media to do.

On 9/2/03 11:44 PM, in article
, "Bram U. Kusuma"
wrote:

Hi All,

I'd like to know more information about last month's (August) alleged
Indonesian Airspace violation by VFA-22 Hornets.

What I know so far is that 5 F/A-18s on a CAP strayed into Commercial
airspace, got too close to a Bouraq 737, the pilot of which reported
the incident to the ground.


I wasn't aware that we were CAP-ing F/A-18's off of Indonesia. More likely,
they were simply conducting training.

Usually, U.S. Navy aircraft operate in international airspace with "due
regard" of other aircraft (which is how international airspace works). If
they're more than 12 NM from Indonesian shore, then they're in international
airspace (by international law).

Over international waters, there is no such thing as so-called "commercial
airspace." All that being said... An attempt is always made to respect
established airways. For example, even the North Atlantic Track System
(routes from North America to Europe) applies to participants only. If an
aircraft carrier wanted to park beneath it and operate in it, they'd have a
right to, but out of respect for the system, they'd most likely establish a
ceiling over their operation in order to deconflict.

"Too close" probably means that the Hornets set off a TCAS resolution alert
in the cockpit of the 737. TCAS is a device which sees the transponders
from other aircraft and attempts to give the pilots of airliners collission
avoidance guidance. The device assumes that the other traffic it sees are
also airliners and will not move quickly to avoid collision.

Bali control, who have the F/A-18s on radar, sent 2 F-16Bs to
intercept. The 7 aircrafts did a (very?) short acm session until one
of the F-16s got bracketed and rocked its wings.


This is a bit confusing. The F-16's did ACM with the Hornets? was it
briefed?

No Navy pilot seeing an F-16 joining un-briefed during a flight would
knowingly perform ACM against that aircraft unless the ACM had been briefed
with the pilots beforehand.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the F/A-18's were already
performing ACM with each other as briefed, and the F-16's wandered in. The
mission might have been continued until the Hornet pilots realized they had
two interlopers. Once the interlopers were identified, the current mission
would be terminated, and the situation would be sorted out with the ship and
the interlopers on guard (the international emergency frequency).

The F/A-18s then stated their intentions and asked the F-16s to stay
away from the CV.


This is standard procedure. The "stay away from the CV" part is for the
safety of everyone involved. There are many aircraft operating near and
around a CV, and it's a bad idea to get too close... BUT in international
airspace, the F-16's could have legally done so.

Indonesian media is reporting that the F/A-18s radar was locking on to
the F-16s, and therefore acting hostile toward the F-16s. This
incident have done no good to improving the public's perception of the
US in Jakarta.


In the scenario above--purely conjecture, but reasonable--it would be normal
for the F/A-18's radar to "lock on" to the F-16's. Any pilot wandering into
a flight of 5 performing intercepts should expect it.

Taking a lock on another aircraft is by definition a hostile act, BUT that
needs to be tempered with what the relations are between the two countries
involved, and what the scenario is.

When intercepting a flight of 5 conducting training with each other. It
would be unreasonable NOT to expect to be locked up.

BUT... When enforcing a no-fly zone, locking the other guy up is definitely
hostile even when the shooting war hasn't started.

That is all the info I have. Anybody know more?

What is the standard procedure for CV aircrafts on CAP enroute through
territorial waters of another country? Was this really what actually
happen?

Where are you defining "territorial waters?" Again, international waters
are defined by international law as starting 12 miles off of a country's
coast. I have a hard time believing that the Hornets or the CV were inside
of 12 miles from land. In any case, when a carrier does operate near land,
every attempt is made to respect commercial airways in both laterally and in
altitude. Otherwise aircraft operate in "due regard..." That is
essentially, "we'll all share the same piece of sky and try to stay out of
each other's way even though there are no formal procedures to keep that
from happening."

These incidents do happen occasionally. They're not a big deal... Unless
the media trump them up as such.

Hope I've answered your questions.

--Woody


Thanks,

Bram

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ...
Bram,

First of all, I don't think that you'll be getting more than speculation
from most folks in this group--including me.

Sounds like Indonesian media is trying to stir up hate and discontent toward
the U.S. Military--a popular thing for media to do.

On 9/2/03 11:44 PM, in article
, "Bram U. Kusuma"
wrote:

Hi All,

I'd like to know more information about last month's (August) alleged
Indonesian Airspace violation by VFA-22 Hornets.

What I know so far is that 5 F/A-18s on a CAP strayed into Commercial
airspace, got too close to a Bouraq 737, the pilot of which reported
the incident to the ground.


I wasn't aware that we were CAP-ing F/A-18's off of Indonesia. More likely,
they were simply conducting training.

Usually, U.S. Navy aircraft operate in international airspace with "due
regard" of other aircraft (which is how international airspace works). If
they're more than 12 NM from Indonesian shore, then they're in international
airspace (by international law).

Speaking of Due Regard...Check out this story from Approach. You may
be surprised what kind of aircraft the author was flying.
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...g01/bigsky.htm

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...

Sounds like Indonesian media is trying to stir up hate and discontent
toward
the U.S. Military--a popular thing for media to do.

Agreed

On 9/2/03 11:44 PM, in article
, "Bram U. Kusuma"
wrote:

snip

What is the standard procedure for CV aircrafts on CAP enroute through
territorial waters of another country? Was this really what actually
happen?

Where are you defining "territorial waters?" Again, international waters
are defined by international law as starting 12 miles off of a country's
coast. I have a hard time believing that the Hornets or the CV were
inside
of 12 miles from land.

As I understand it, the US Navy ocasionally transits through Sunda Strait
(Sumatera/Java) and Lambok Strait (Bali/Lombok), claiming they are
'International Straits'. Both transits require going within 12nm of
Indonesian land. I doubt that flying operations stop for the few dozen miles
that they are reasonably close to land.

In any case, when a carrier does operate near land,
every attempt is made to respect commercial airways in both laterally and
in
altitude. Otherwise aircraft operate in "due regard..." That is
essentially, "we'll all share the same piece of sky and try to stay out of
each other's way even though there are no formal procedures to keep that
from happening."

These incidents do happen occasionally. They're not a big deal... Unless
the media trump them up as such.

It's a situation with a lot of possibilities for tension.


--
Errol Cavit
to email, my middle initial is G | "I see; power without responsibility, the
prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages." Kipling replying to
Beaverbrook, who was boasting of his power.

On 9/4/03 4:24 AM, in article , "Errol Cavit"
wrote:

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...

SNIP

As I understand it, the US Navy ocasionally transits through Sunda Strait
(Sumatera/Java) and Lambok Strait (Bali/Lombok), claiming they are
'International Straits'. Both transits require going within 12nm of
Indonesian land. I doubt that flying operations stop for the few dozen miles
that they are reasonably close to land.


Three points:
1. It's been so long since I've done a WESTPAC, I don't remember all the
strait transits. The last two passages I remember were Malacha and Hormuz.
I don't remember Sunda or Lambak per se. May be showing my geographic
ignorance here--either that or we didn't go there.

2. Interestingly enough, international law makes an exception for
straights. In other words, if the strait is less than 12 miles wide, it may
still be international waters/airspace. I had never considered this
possibility until some lawyer briefed me up on it. There's a fancy name to
it too. Lawyers (or sea lawyers) feel free to jump in.

3. Flight ops usually do stop if the waters are restrictive depending on
winds and airspace constraints. The CV sprints through the restrictive
waters and flies again when they open up.

In any case, when a carrier does operate near land,

Only when it must.

every attempt is made to respect commercial airways in both laterally and
in
altitude. Otherwise aircraft operate in "due regard..." That is
essentially, "we'll all share the same piece of sky and try to stay out of
each other's way even though there are no formal procedures to keep that
from happening."

These incidents do happen occasionally. They're not a big deal... Unless
the media trump them up as such.

It's a situation with a lot of possibilities for tension.

Bram U. Kusuma wrote:
Hi All,

I'd like to know more information about last month's (August) alleged
Indonesian Airspace violation by VFA-22 Hornets.

Some links for those who are curious...

http://www.angkasa-online.com/13/11/...h/english1.htm
http://www.laksamana.net/vnews.cfm?news_id=5708

This one has a graphic of the furball...
http://forum.a-10.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3378

Mike