Forgiving sailplanes

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some like the Schweizers, Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and the Discus... Any other to list?

On Jul 20, 8:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. She's merciless. Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. They're
FAR more important.

One aspect that "may" be considered as a "forgiving" item is a nose
hook vs. a CG hook for aero-towing.

Wing drops, cross-winds, lousy piloting techinque, etc can be
magnified to nasty trips into the closest runway light when aero-
towing with a CG hook whereas a tow rope connected to a nose hook
"may" have the ability to pull you straight and away from expensive
trouble.

Of course, your mileage may vary...

Ray Lovinggood
LS1-d with CG hook, but no runway lights

On Jul 20, 12:24*pm, bildan wrote:
So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. *They're
FAR more important.

Nevertheless some manufacturers have in the past put performance ahead
of handling and others have put handling ahead of performance. While
a skilled pilot can overcome handling defficiencies they can kill an
inattentive or inexperienced pilot.

Any pilot considering purchasing a glider should consider at least -

Do I fit in it comfortably
Do I have adequate rear quadrant visibility to fly safely with other
gliders
Are the handling characteristics (particularly stall/spin) benign, or
am I skilled enough to cope with them if they are not.

To answer the OP question - based on 1,500 hours in the ASW-19b I can
say it has very pleasant handling and has no flight characterisitcs
that make it unsuitable for low time piilots. Its only vice is a
reluctance to go straight at the start of tow with a strong cross
wind, but that can be overcome by pilot skill.

Andy (GY)

On 7/20/2010 12:24 PM, bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
wrote:

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.


I don't agree at all. A qualified pilot can compensate for "unforgiving"
qualities, but that doesn't make the glider "forgiving". Some gliders
have very poor glide path control, some spin easily, with little
warning, and don't recover quickly. Put the CG too far aft, and most
gliders are likely not "forgiving".

Even a qualified pilot can be distracted, or tired, or hypoxic, or
dehydrated, and the outcome is likely to be much better in a "forgiving"
glider than one that isn't. The "forgiveness" difference between an
early Std Cirrus and any LS4 is an important one, as an example. Or
between an ASK 21 and a Nimbus 4D.
What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. She's merciless. Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

I don't think the "Mother Nature" is the main factor in most glider
accidents. Look at how many happen near the airport and in good weather.
So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. They're
FAR more important.


There is no reason at all to "forget about" something that you can buy
and have it work for you every time you fly. Get a glider that won't
surprise you, even if you make a mistake, get the flying skills you need
to handle it, and work constantly on the judgment that will keep you out
of bad situations.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Jul 20, 1:59*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 7/20/2010 12:24 PM, bildan wrote:





On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
*wrote:

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. *OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. *Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. *They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. *Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. *The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

I don't agree at all. A qualified pilot can compensate for "unforgiving"
qualities, but that doesn't make the glider "forgiving". Some gliders
have very poor glide path control, some spin easily, with little
warning, and don't recover quickly. Put the CG too far aft, and most
gliders are likely not "forgiving".

Right, and the only thing that makes these gliders 'forgiving' is
pilot skill. My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small. After all, they have to go
through the same certification process. (Experimental glider
excluded, of course.)


Even a qualified pilot can be distracted, or tired, or hypoxic, or
dehydrated, and the outcome is likely to be much better in a "forgiving"
glider than one that isn't.

You really think mere benign handling qualities will save this guy?
He's likely to fly his 'forgiving' glider into a tree.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. *Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. *She's merciless. * Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

I don't think the "Mother Nature" is the main factor in most glider
accidents. Look at how many happen near the airport and in good weather.

Mother nature = gravity. Gravity is involved in all accidents.

So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. *They're
FAR more important.

There is no reason at all to "forget about" something that you can buy
and have it work for you every time you fly. Get a glider that won't
surprise you, even if you make a mistake, get the flying skills you need
to handle it, and work constantly on the judgment that will keep you out
of bad situations.

I don't think you can "buy" safety - (except by hiring a highly
proficient pilot to fly you around in a two seater). A lot of pilots
who have tried to buy it are dead. Safety is something you have to
earn with training, practice and RESPECT for the danger.

bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

On Jul 20, 2:55*pm, John Smith wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

Thanks for bringing up the Fox. Learn to fly one with a great
instructor and every other glider will seem like a pussycat. THEN,
you're a safe - at least from handling issues.

A competent pilot (meaning one who has trained in the Fox with an
expert) can fly a Fox safely AND fly the ASK-21 safely. The student
thermalling happily in an ASK-21 is neither competent nor safe since
he may have to land in a gusty crosswind among other things. The key
here isn't the glider, it's the pilot's skill.

No glider is so 'forgiving' that it will save a pilot from himself or
from the inevitable flukes of nature and few, if any, gliders are so
viscous a pilot can't be trained to fly them safely. Safety, to the
extent that it exists, is in the skill set a pilot brings to the task.

I learned to fly in an LK-10A - a glider whose spin characteristics
make a 2-32 seem like a pussycat. We trained all sorts to fly it and,
yes, there were a few accidents but they were the same kind students
have with 2-33's. Pilots were afraid of the LK's spin characteristics
so they were careful not to spin (a good thing). Instead of spinning,
they hit fences.

Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
with training, practice and RESPECT. If a pilot is so concerned about
his ability he's seeking to buy a 'safe'glider, he should spend his
money on more training.

On 2010/07/20 10:44 PM, bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 1:59 pm, Eric wrote:
On 7/20/2010 12:24 PM, bildan wrote:





On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
wrote:

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

I don't agree at all. A qualified pilot can compensate for "unforgiving"
qualities, but that doesn't make the glider "forgiving". Some gliders
have very poor glide path control, some spin easily, with little
warning, and don't recover quickly. Put the CG too far aft, and most
gliders are likely not "forgiving".

Right, and the only thing that makes these gliders 'forgiving' is
pilot skill. My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small. After all, they have to go
through the same certification process. (Experimental glider
excluded, of course.)


Even a qualified pilot can be distracted, or tired, or hypoxic, or
dehydrated, and the outcome is likely to be much better in a "forgiving"
glider than one that isn't.

You really think mere benign handling qualities will save this guy?
He's likely to fly his 'forgiving' glider into a tree.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. She's merciless. Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

I don't think the "Mother Nature" is the main factor in most glider
accidents. Look at how many happen near the airport and in good weather.

Mother nature = gravity. Gravity is involved in all accidents.

So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. They're
FAR more important.

There is no reason at all to "forget about" something that you can buy
and have it work for you every time you fly. Get a glider that won't
surprise you, even if you make a mistake, get the flying skills you need
to handle it, and work constantly on the judgment that will keep you out
of bad situations.

I don't think you can "buy" safety - (except by hiring a highly
proficient pilot to fly you around in a two seater). A lot of pilots
who have tried to buy it are dead. Safety is something you have to
earn with training, practice and RESPECT for the danger.
Hi Bill

I'm with Eric here. My first glass was (still is) a Std Cirrus. Nimble,
responsive, fun to fly. Unforgiving of inattention. Easy to spin (and
correct) Landings are always challenging with the pitch sensitivity, and
low washout tips.
Second is a Kestrel 19 - much heavier, more complex, big wings. I know
which one I have to worry more in. Specifically about my performance -
not the glider - About getting dehydrated or simply tired, about making
a mistake at a critical point. And you do get more tired because you can
never relax in the Cirrus.

Skill is not everything. Attentiveness and luck also play a role, as do
things like the relative effort required to safely conduct a flight.

If you fly something with exemplary handling, like a (Duo)Discus or a
K21 or a LS4 it is a lot easier to be safe.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Jul 20, 10:09*pm, Bruce wrote:
On 2010/07/20 10:44 PM, bildan wrote:



On Jul 20, 1:59 pm, Eric *wrote:
On 7/20/2010 12:24 PM, bildan wrote:

On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
* *wrote:

Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. *OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. *Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. *They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. *Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. *The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

I don't agree at all. A qualified pilot can compensate for "unforgiving"
qualities, but that doesn't make the glider "forgiving". Some gliders
have very poor glide path control, some spin easily, with little
warning, and don't recover quickly. Put the CG too far aft, and most
gliders are likely not "forgiving".

Right, and the only thing that makes these gliders 'forgiving' is
pilot skill. *My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small. *After all, they have to go
through the same certification process. *(Experimental glider
excluded, of course.)

Even a qualified pilot can be distracted, or tired, or hypoxic, or
dehydrated, and the outcome is likely to be much better in a "forgiving"
glider than one that isn't.

You really think mere benign handling qualities will save this guy?
He's likely to fly his 'forgiving' glider into a tree.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. *Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. *She's merciless. * Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

I don't think the "Mother Nature" is the main factor in most glider
accidents. Look at how many happen near the airport and in good weather.