Question on ditching an Orion

In 2001 a US reconisance plane fell into Chinese
hands for full examination
(for fuller background, read the below).

If pilot Osburn had tried to fly as far as he could
toward an 'authorized' airport and had to 'ditch'
in the open ocean, what were the chances of
the 24 crew surviving?

http://readersupportednews.org/off-s...-online-threat
Annals of National Security
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
November 1, 2010
On April 1, 2001, an American EP-3E Aries II reconnaissance plane on an
eavesdropping mission collided with a Chinese interceptor jet over the South
China Sea, triggering the first international crisis of George W. Bush's
Administration. The Chinese jet crashed, and its pilot was killed, but the
pilot of the American aircraft, Navy Lieutenant Shane Osborn, managed to
make an emergency landing at a Chinese F-8 fighter base on Hainan Island,
fifteen miles from the mainland. Osborn later published a memoir, in which
he described the "incessant jackhammer vibration" as the plane fell eight
thousand feet in thirty seconds, before he regained control.

The plane carried twenty-four officers and enlisted men and women attached
to the Naval Security Group Command, a field component of the National
Security Agency. They were repatriated after eleven days; the plane stayed
behind ----

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:44:33 -0700, "a425couple"
wrote:

In 2001 a US reconisance plane fell into Chinese
hands for full examination
(for fuller background, read the below).

If pilot Osburn had tried to fly as far as he could
toward an 'authorized' airport and had to 'ditch'
in the open ocean, what were the chances of
the 24 crew surviving?

There have been at least two P-3 ditchings.

One was in the North Pacific after a "prop fails to feather" emergency
(a VERY serious failure in a P-3). They frequently lead to engine
fires, which is what happened here.

http://www.vpnavy.com/vp9586.html

I did not, in quick search, find a the story but I'm sure some time
with Google will turn it up. It was written up at least in APPROACH
in years past.

One was in the Gulf:

http://www.vpnavy.com/vp47ditch.html

Ditching at sea is a very dicey proposition if the aircraft is
undamaged and easily controlable. With major airframe damage it's not
something I'd look forward to. Further, the A/C did not KNOW what his
status actually was. For all he knew a wing was going to fall off
without much warning. So picking even a potentially hostile airfield
was probably the wisest choice under the circumstances.

An ASW crew is smaller than an ELINT crew so there is the question of
egress.

The P-3 is a nice aircraft to fly with boosted controlls. Boost out
it's a real chore to keep it under control.

"a425couple" wrote in message
...
In 2001 a US reconisance plane fell into Chinese
hands for full examination
(for fuller background, read the below).

If pilot Osburn had tried to fly as far as he could
toward an 'authorized' airport and had to 'ditch'
in the open ocean, what were the chances of
the 24 crew surviving?

http://readersupportednews.org/off-s...-online-threat
Annals of National Security
The Online Threat
Should we be worried about a cyber war?
by Seymour M. Hersh
November 1, 2010
On April 1, 2001, an American EP-3E Aries II reconnaissance plane on an
eavesdropping mission collided with a Chinese interceptor jet over the
South China Sea, triggering the first international crisis of George W.
Bush's Administration. The Chinese jet crashed, and its pilot was killed,
but the pilot of the American aircraft, Navy Lieutenant Shane Osborn,
managed to make an emergency landing at a Chinese F-8 fighter base on
Hainan Island, fifteen miles from the mainland. Osborn later published a
memoir, in which he described the "incessant jackhammer vibration" as the
plane fell eight thousand feet in thirty seconds, before he regained
control.

The plane carried twenty-four officers and enlisted men and women attached
to the Naval Security Group Command, a field component of the National
Security Agency. They were repatriated after eleven days; the plane stayed
behind ----






Wasn't this subject done to death at the time ? ISTR the pilot's decision
was examined relentlessly by people nowhere near the scene when it mattered.



For what it's worth, the odd Orion has been ditched successfully

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/galler.../RC_DG_3A9_754

This is an RAAF Orion that ditched in the lagoon and was dragged back to the
beach for salvage.



From http://www.adf-serials.com/


"On the 26th April 1991 the aircraft took off from Cocos Island and
commenced a right hand climbing turn to a height of 5,000 ft above mean sea
level (AMSL). The aircraft was then placed into a shallow dive and
positioned for a low level pass across the airfield. As the aircraft crossed
the runway at 380 knots indicated airspeed and 300 ft AMSL, the pilot began
a straight pull-out from the dive with all engines at full power. At this
point, eyewitnesses saw a number of items separate from the aircraft. These
items were later identified as wing leading edge components. A shallow climb
was then achieved with the aircraft vibrating violently. The pilot attempted
to complete a circuit preparatory to landing but height could not be
maintained and the aircraft was ditched into the shallow water of the
lagoon. Fin displayed at 492 Sqn HQ RAAF Edinburgh. Remainder of airframe
dumped at sea."



IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying circumstances.
He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive gear to be
destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the plane was flown
back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway. If you fly these missions along an
"enemy" coast and don't plan for this contingency, then you deserve to get
boned up the arse.



Oh yes, did I mention, Osborn got his crew home alive......





--



Cheers

Dave Kearton

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the
plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio receivers
feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value the it's an
ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability: keeping
them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the most
important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they feed,
what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that matter.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam





Just parenthetical to all of this, I showed up in Beijing the day after the
incident.


My trip was booked for weeks beforehand, but my engineer and I showed up at
the airport, on 28-day tourist visas with bags full of electronics to work
at the Australian Embassy.


It's a lot more pedestrian than it sounds, but we sailed through customs and
immigration at the airport. During our routine briefing, the security
officer at the embassy told us that the Chinese _knew_ we were spooks. (NO -
we weren't, but that didn't matter) The Chinese didn't care, as long
as they knew what we were up to and what we found out while we were there.
It's only if there is some doubt on this last part that we'd be detained at
the airport - at the end of our 28 days - by the guy with the rubber gloves.


It was a time of slightly elevated tension between the US and China and the
internal security crowd were working overtime on 'visitors' who pretended to
be tourists. We were followed, tailed, politely questioned by locals
and my hotel room was bugged.

Apart from all that, China's a lovely country and we got lots of work
done.....





--



Cheers

Dave Kearton

In article ,
"Dave Kearton" wrote:

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the
plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio receivers
feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value the it's an
ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability: keeping
them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the most
important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they feed,
what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that matter.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam





Just parenthetical to all of this, I showed up in Beijing the day after the
incident.


My trip was booked for weeks beforehand, but my engineer and I showed up at
the airport, on 28-day tourist visas with bags full of electronics to work
at the Australian Embassy.


It's a lot more pedestrian than it sounds, but we sailed through customs and
immigration at the airport. During our routine briefing, the security
officer at the embassy told us that the Chinese _knew_ we were spooks. (NO -
we weren't, but that didn't matter) The Chinese didn't care, as long
as they knew what we were up to and what we found out while we were there.
It's only if there is some doubt on this last part that we'd be detained at
the airport - at the end of our 28 days - by the guy with the rubber gloves.


It was a time of slightly elevated tension between the US and China and the
internal security crowd were working overtime on 'visitors' who pretended to
be tourists. We were followed, tailed, politely questioned by locals
and my hotel room was bugged.

Apart from all that, China's a lovely country and we got lots of work
done.....

This reminds me of a story of a married couple of friends who fly for a
major international airline (Both are pilots). He was also an AF Reserve
BG.

We liked to play the board game Risk together, so thy bought an
electronic version to play on layovers. They had a layover in Beijing
and played Risk in the hotel room. I can just hear, "I just captured
Japan" -- "I just took Great Britain", etc. Of course, the room HAD to
be bugged!

Anyway, they took a guided tour of Beijing the next morning. She
remarked to us that they were the only people on the bus and got a
personal guided tour.

I can just imaging the conversation in Chinese Intel: "What's an
American BG doing in Beijing, masquerading as an airline pilot?"

***********

Another friend visited Beijing about 25 years ago, as a member of a
scientific exchange team. At that time, there were two kinds of cars
the green (military) and black (government). They were moved through
Customs and sent to a black car, with Chinese driver, to go to their
quarters and told that the drivers did not speak English. As they were
going down the road, a pig crossed in front of them. Ben,always the
joker, exclaimed, "There goes dinner!" The driver giggled -- they had
another driver the next morning and did not get the original one back.

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Dave Kearton" wrote:

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive
gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the
plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its
mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..."
And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other,
there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout,
drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to
port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers
feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value the it's
an
ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping
them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the most
important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in
China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed,
what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam





Just parenthetical to all of this, I showed up in Beijing the day after
the
incident.


My trip was booked for weeks beforehand, but my engineer and I showed up
at
the airport, on 28-day tourist visas with bags full of electronics to
work
at the Australian Embassy.


It's a lot more pedestrian than it sounds, but we sailed through customs
and
immigration at the airport. During our routine briefing, the security
officer at the embassy told us that the Chinese _knew_ we were spooks.
(NO -
we weren't, but that didn't matter) The Chinese didn't care, as
long
as they knew what we were up to and what we found out while we were
there.
It's only if there is some doubt on this last part that we'd be detained
at
the airport - at the end of our 28 days - by the guy with the rubber
gloves.


It was a time of slightly elevated tension between the US and China and
the
internal security crowd were working overtime on 'visitors' who pretended
to
be tourists. We were followed, tailed, politely questioned by locals
and my hotel room was bugged.

Apart from all that, China's a lovely country and we got lots of work
done.....

This reminds me of a story of a married couple of friends who fly for a
major international airline (Both are pilots). He was also an AF Reserve
BG.

We liked to play the board game Risk together, so thy bought an
electronic version to play on layovers. They had a layover in Beijing
and played Risk in the hotel room. I can just hear, "I just captured
Japan" -- "I just took Great Britain", etc. Of course, the room HAD to
be bugged!

Anyway, they took a guided tour of Beijing the next morning. She
remarked to us that they were the only people on the bus and got a
personal guided tour.

I can just imaging the conversation in Chinese Intel: "What's an
American BG doing in Beijing, masquerading as an airline pilot?"

***********

Another friend visited Beijing about 25 years ago, as a member of a
scientific exchange team. At that time, there were two kinds of cars
the green (military) and black (government). They were moved through
Customs and sent to a black car, with Chinese driver, to go to their
quarters and told that the drivers did not speak English. As they were
going down the road, a pig crossed in front of them. Ben,always the
joker, exclaimed, "There goes dinner!" The driver giggled -- they had
another driver the next morning and did not get the original one back.



Two stories - that happened to me ...


My hotel room - in the Great Wall Sheraton



My hotel room had hidden cameras, I found at least two. One covered
the bedroom area, from an air-conditioning grille and just gets an overall
view.


The other ???? You know when you have a shower and the bathroom
mirror fogs up ? When I took a shower, the mirror fogged up -
with the exception of a brick-sized space that remained clear.


There are only three things in a hotel bathroom; a bath/shower, a hand basin
and the toilet. If there was a camera hidden in that space, it
wouldn't see the shower, it might see the edge of the hand basin area,
try not to form a mental image it would see the back of your head when
you were sitting on the porcelain.


I don't know how much they were paying the poor guy who had to watch that
video of me on the can - but it certainly wasn't enough.




Rocky & Bullwinkle

Can't say a lot about what we were up to at the embassy - it's not a
secret, just bad manners to talk about other customers' premises.
What I can say is we were servicing CCTV cameras. To make the job
easier, we took a couple of handheld CB radios (hoping the CB band in China
was the same as ours). I'd be up on a ladder, tweaking a camera
lens and Peter, my engineer would be at the monitor telling me how the
picture looked.


After several hours of this tedium, I clicked on the mike and said "OK
Boris, first we do cameras, then we kill Moose and Squirrel"


As it happened, the Embassy's head of security was in the security room
with Peter, when all this happened. Frank ***** was a year away
from retirement, a chain smoker and nothing ever bothered him anymore.
He casually wandered over to where I was up a ladder, cuddling the camera,
lit up a nail and took a drag.


Then in the most laconic voice he could be bothered to muster, he said "
you know Dave, big exhale the Chinese secret police never watched Rocky
and Bullwinkle when they were kids, big drag with drawback unless you
want to spend 12 hours at the airport with the guy with the long rubber
glove, you might not want to muck about on the radio"

(well he didn't say 'muck' about, but it was close)





--



Cheers

Dave Kearton

On Oct 28, 9:49*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*"Dave Kearton" wrote:



"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the sensitive
gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was left of the
plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a nasty
option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission Supervisor
Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what its mission
was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still searching..." And
who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of each other, there's
no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during the bailout, drowned
in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no comms on his way to port,
or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed and explicit about EP-3
capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio receivers
feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value the it's an
ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability: keeping
them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the most
important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they feed,
what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that matter.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Just parenthetical to all of this, I showed up in Beijing the day after the
incident.

My trip was booked for weeks beforehand, but my engineer and I showed up at
the airport, on 28-day tourist visas with bags full of electronics to work
at the Australian Embassy.

It's a lot more pedestrian than it sounds, but we sailed through customs and
immigration at the airport. * * During our routine briefing, the security
officer at the embassy told us that the Chinese _knew_ we were spooks. (NO -
we weren't, but that didn't matter) * * * *The Chinese didn't care, as long
as they knew what we were up to and what we found out while we were there.
It's only if there is some doubt on this last part that we'd be detained at
the airport - at the end of our 28 days - by the guy with the rubber gloves.

It was a time of slightly elevated tension between the US and China and the
internal security crowd were working overtime on 'visitors' who pretended to
be tourists. * * *We were followed, tailed, politely questioned by locals
and my hotel room was bugged.

Apart from all that, China's a lovely country and we got lots of work
done.....

This reminds me of a story of a married couple of friends who fly for a
major international airline (Both are pilots). He was also an AF Reserve
BG.

We liked to play the board game Risk together, so thy bought an
electronic version to play on layovers. They had a layover in Beijing
and played Risk in the hotel room. I can just hear, "I just captured
Japan" *-- "I just took Great Britain", etc. Of course, the room HAD to
be bugged!

Anyway, they took a guided tour of Beijing the next morning. She
remarked to us that they were the only people on the bus and got a
personal guided tour.

I can just imaging the conversation in Chinese Intel: "What's an
American BG doing in Beijing, masquerading as an airline pilot?"

* * ************

Another friend visited Beijing about 25 years ago, as a member of a
scientific exchange team. At that time, there were two kinds of cars
the green (military) and black (government). They were moved through
Customs and sent to a black car, with Chinese driver, to go to their
quarters and told that the drivers did not speak English. As they were
going down the road, a pig crossed in front of them. Ben,always the
joker, exclaimed, "There goes dinner!" The driver giggled -- they had
another driver the next morning and did not get the original one back.

Had lots of local drivers driving VIPs in Japan that supposedly did
not speak English. All interpreters and drivers were thought to be if
not official Japanese intelligence, reporting to them. Not to mention
the waiters at the clubs. All the hired nationals. Yeah, leaked like a
sieve....

In article ,
says...

In message , Dave Kearton
writes
IMHO Lt Osborn made all the right decisions under very trying
circumstances. He kept the plane aloft, long enough for all the
sensitive gear to be destroyed, he KEPT HIS CREW ALIVE and what was
left of the plane was flown back to the US after the Chinese were done
with it.

If you think worst-case, ditching or baling out offers the Chinese a
nasty option. "We picked up nine of the crew, here they are. Mission
Supervisor Snuffy, who knows all about what the aircraft can do and what
its mission was? No, haven't found a trace of him, but we're still
searching..." And who's to know different? Once the crew lose sight of
each other, there's no way to know whether Supervisor Snuffy died during
the bailout, drowned in the ocean, is on a slow fishing boat with no
comms on his way to port, or is being forcibly persuaded to be detailed
and explicit about EP-3 capabilities in a Beijing basement.

Once the hard discs, memory cards, crypto modules, whatever have been
dealt with, the EP-3 is an elderly turboprop with a lot of radio
receivers feeding to dead systems. Not a lot of genuine intel value
the it's an ELINT platform, gee whiz, who knew?

The crew are the real prize which could compromise the capability:
keeping them together, alive, and getting them all home protects the
most important asset.

Who cares what the Chinese would see on the plane, they would get that
hardware via other means anyway.

A cynical part of me wonders how much of the hardware is "Made in China"
anyway. Radio receivers aren't exactly new or secret, it's what they
feed, what you can achieve with them and what you were sent to get that
matter.

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...

"Tankfixer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

I always wondered why once they had landed and all that a rather nasty
fire didn't break out onboard...



We can only speculate how the Chinese would have reacted to that.


When you're facing the possibility of time in a Chinese gulag, it's best not
to **** them off more than you have to.



--



Cheers

Dave Kearton