beware of "warranty" R&R labor costs

Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Well, I'd be a bit ****ed at the shop if you ordered it through them.
They made the markup money along with the installation costs. Part of
doing business is building in a bit of warranty work. THEIR bitch
should be with Sigma Tek and they should be reimbursed by the
manufacturer, not you. You can't be in business and expect win-win.
It doesn't happen that way.

Customer service of this type should never be tolerated. Instead of
telling us about it, (and we're always on the lookout for the infamous
"Aviation Scumbag") your energies should be directed toward a consumer
group in your area. If you lie down and take it, they'll do it again
and again. And although it's nice to know, there's no other game in
town.

Personally I'm going back and forth on an autopilot decision. I have
an older Century that is in perfect shape, but some people are under
the impression that the new owner of the manufacturing company must be
paid a royalty if I were to use it. I refuse to be the victim of
extortion and am determined to have it put into the aircraft, even if
I do it myself and claim it's always been there. The unit was bought
and paid for back in 1975. OTOH, for about double the cash outlay I
can buy a new STec whose customer service is about the same as the
described in the original post.




On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:30:06 GMT, Doug Vetter
wrote:

Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug

The warranty that comes with anything is governed by... well.. the
warranty that comes with it. We have come to "expect" that parts and
labor are covered on a "DOA" or defective out-of-the-box unit, but there
is no existing law stating this has to happen. This is probably due too
the fact that the warranty that comes with automobiles includes labor
most of the time, especiall when new.

Also, the turnaround time to get a replacement out to you is also
usually left to the manufacturer because they don't put that in the
warranty explicitly. Whether the replacement unit is new, used, or your
unit repaired is also up to them if it is no stated. Warranty language
is usually very vague, and, the warranty is your only contract. If it is
not specifically stated, you usually won't get it. Most dealers and/or
installation shops eat the labor charge to avoid bad blood with the
customer.

Good Luck,
Mike
Justin Case wrote:
Well, I'd be a bit ****ed at the shop if you ordered it through them.
They made the markup money along with the installation costs. Part of
doing business is building in a bit of warranty work. THEIR bitch
should be with Sigma Tek and they should be reimbursed by the
manufacturer, not you. You can't be in business and expect win-win.
It doesn't happen that way.

Customer service of this type should never be tolerated. Instead of
telling us about it, (and we're always on the lookout for the infamous
"Aviation Scumbag") your energies should be directed toward a consumer
group in your area. If you lie down and take it, they'll do it again
and again. And although it's nice to know, there's no other game in
town.

Personally I'm going back and forth on an autopilot decision. I have
an older Century that is in perfect shape, but some people are under
the impression that the new owner of the manufacturing company must be
paid a royalty if I were to use it. I refuse to be the victim of
extortion and am determined to have it put into the aircraft, even if
I do it myself and claim it's always been there. The unit was bought
and paid for back in 1975. OTOH, for about double the cash outlay I
can buy a new STec whose customer service is about the same as the
described in the original post.




On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:30:06 GMT, Doug Vetter
wrote:


Hi all,

I recently had a $1700 SigmaTek bootstrap gyro installed in our airplane
and figured I'd relate this story.

This gyro exhibited excessive precession since the day it was
installed....in other words, it was defective. I called my avionics
tech and asked him to order a new gyro. No problem. 5 weeks later it
shows up and is installed (they build these things to order because, as
we all know, gyros that sit on the shelf risk bearing problems and
premature failure).

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

So, I called SigmaTek today and they basically told me "tough...that's
our policy and we're not changing it". They even tried to pat
themselves on the back and say that they went over and beyond the call
by doing a swap with a new unit when refurbishing the original is
"strict policy". When I point out that I paid for a NEW gyro, so I
would naturally expect nothing less than a NEW gyro, they are still not
convinced that this is merely adequate post-sale support.

Since my issue was never with the Avionics shop, I paid their invoice,
but SigmaTek is now on my $hit list. While I positively LOVE their
gyros, I HATE their post-sale support.

Apparently (my avionics tech tells me) this is a common gripe with many
avionics/systems vendors. He said that he had many customer complaints
regarding the JPI engine analyzers, for example, and R&R labor was
getting out of hand, so now in his quotes for those systems he
explicitly states that R&R labor is not covered. I recommended he make
that boilerplate in all quotes so people are not surprised to learn that
they might have to pay for a manufacturer's mistake.

So, I suppose the moral of the story is Caveat Emptor. If you're
getting something installed, be sure to ask about who is responsible for
what if the unit/equipment needs to be taken out of the airplane for
so-called "warranty" service. A gyro is pretty simple to remove, but a
some other system intertwined with the aircraft's innards? Could amount
to BIG bucks.

Safe flying,

-Doug




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Certainly, if you bought the gyro retail from the same shop that installed
it, the shop should replace a defective unit free of charge, including labor
to R&R, and they should do all of the dealing with the manufacturer for
warranty adjustment. If you simply hired the shop to do an install of a
unit you bought directly from the manufacturer, or elsewhere, it would be
quite reasonable for the manufacturer to refuse to pay for R&R of a
defective unit.

-Elliott Drucker

In article , Doug Vetter
writes:

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor.

When my GNS 430 failed I was in Tucson, AZ. Unit was installed in Ohio, 6 mo
previous. The repair shop got a new one from Garmin, installed it, and
returned the defective, all at no cost to me. I assume Garmin covered it.

Chuck

Doug Vetter wrote in message v.net...

Then I get the bill. What's this? 1.0 hour labor ($75) to R&R the
gyro? I talk to my avionics tech and he says that while SigmaTek covers
the DG itself under warranty, they don't cover R&R labor. WTF? I think
to myself it's one thing if it failed in service at some point, but this
was broken from day 1. Even though SigmaTek tagged this equipment, it's
pretty clear it didn't go through sufficient "burn in" and general QC to
be put in an airplane.

I wouldn't be miffed with SigmaTek. I'd be miffed at the avionics
shop. My avionics and regular maintenance shops have a policy that
they'll do the warranty R&R for free if you bought the unit from them.
They get a cut of the parts cost, so they act accordingly. If you
bring in some outside part, they'll be happy to install it, but if it
needs to come back out, R&R is on your tab.

This is a fairly common policy at aviation shops. I'd expect my
shop to provide some added value for their cut of the parts price.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)