Low pass

After giving it just a little thought...

Not to deflate some of those egos out there...but.....the low pass is
a maneuver requiring no particular pilot skills whatsoever! I mean
it's...go fast...slow down...turn around......duh...not particularly
dangerous.....I mean anybody can do it....Especially if you don't mind
the occasional fatality..........

Now glider pilots with real skill....they do the low pass
inverted.......got to be more fun, right?


Cookie

Originally Posted by Cookie

After giving it just a little thought...

Not to deflate some of those egos out there...but.....the low pass is
a maneuver requiring no particular pilot skills whatsoever! I mean
it's...go fast...slow down...turn around......duh...not particularly
dangerous.....I mean anybody can do it....Especially if you don't mind
the occasional fatality..........

Now glider pilots with real skill....they do the low pass
inverted.......got to be more fun, right?


Cookie

Cookie, I learn a great deal by reading web sites such as this, listening to my instructors, (I have a commercial certificate, airplanes and gliders but John Henderson, Andy Bodner, Bill Sherman, Ron Chastain, Jim Wherley, Jim Gager and Jan Driessen are still my INSTRUCTORS) listening to other pilots, observing, asking questions and trying to understand. Opinions are like behinds, we all have one and some are more attractive than others.

There are REASONS for things happening and EXCUSES for things that happened. Failing to coordinate a turn low and slow in the pattern is a REASON for a stall/spin fatality, not an excuse. Being dehydrated might be a REASON for an accident, not an excuse, failing to properly interpret a rudder wag and releasing is a reason for an accident, not an excuse. Carb ice might be the REASON for an engine failure but failure to recognize the conditions, use carb heat properly and clear the engine adequately is not an excuse. An excuse is when one tries to justify something which was done that resulted in a less than acceptable outcome when there was a known remedy which would have eliminated the potential problem. Many of the comments on these and other incidents from posters are good faith attempts to identify the cause of the mishap which is beneficial to all. These comments make me think, thinking makes me a better pilot.

I have been most fortunate in my flying endeavors over the years. The guy who taught me to fly power was a grizzled old fart with 25K hours and a no nonsense approach to flying. No hotdogging, no showing off, fly the way you are taught or get the hell out of Dodge. I remember his first words to me when we sat down in his office and I told him I wanted to learn how to fly. "Flying is a lot of fun, BUT IT'S SERIOUS BUSINESS."

My glider flight instructors and my examiner were from the same mold. Old guys with tons of experience who did a great job of imparting to me the importance of learning to fly properly and using ones head. I love this sport, I love everything about it with the exception of the accidents and especially the fatalities. When we quit using our heads bad things can happen. Bad press results from accidents and this is not beneficial to our sports growth and long term viability.

I've read most of the information available on the recent rash of accidents. Amazing that many of the pilots were highly experienced, CFI-G's, an designated examiner and others with high time. I've not seen or read what I would have interpreted as anyone making excuses for what happened.

The real danger in flying is when we as individuals become so arrogant as to think that we have all the answers and no one else does. The key for those of us such as myself is to be able to weed out the common sense, logical, sensible answers from the less than helpful information. Not an easy task at times but worth making the effort. JMHO.

Walt Connelly
Fledgling Glider Pilot

On Aug 25, 7:07*am, Cookie wrote:
After giving it just a little thought...

Not to deflate some of those egos out there...but.....the low pass is
a maneuver requiring no particular pilot skills whatsoever! * I mean
it's...go fast...slow down...turn around......duh...not *particularly
dangerous.....I mean anybody can do it....Especially if you don't mind
the occasional fatality..........

Now glider pilots with real skill....they do the low pass
inverted.......got to be more fun, right?

Cookie

Who ever said any particular skills were required for a low pass?

It does require judgment and proper equipment.

Neither of which you appear to possess.

Kirk
66

On Aug 25, 8:07*am, Cookie wrote:

Now glider pilots with real skill....they do the low pass
inverted.......got to be more fun, right?


I saw that done in Germany. After witnessing the low inverted pass, I
was shocked and commented to a bystander that "We don't do that in my
country". He replied that the pilots were part of the German
aerobatic sailplane team and were practicing for an upcoming event.

Guy Byars wrote:

Cookie wrote:
Now glider pilots with real skill....they do the low pass
inverted.......got to be more fun, right?

I saw that done in Germany. After witnessing the low inverted pass, I
was shocked and commented to a bystander that "We don't do that in my
country". He replied that the pilots were part of the German
aerobatic sailplane team and were practicing for an upcoming event.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS7y2B9sgBg

Kirk, I think Cookie was being rather tongue-in-cheek... reference his
line: "Especially if you don't mind the occasional fatality..........
"

One of my club's members, Manfred Radius, is an airshow aerobatic
glider pilot who ends his show with an inverted pass to cut a ribbon
with his V-tail (Salto).
http://www.radiusairshows.com/

On Aug 25, 4:53*pm, jsbrake wrote:
Kirk, I think Cookie was being rather tongue-in-cheek... reference his
line: "Especially if you don't mind the occasional fatality..........
"

One of my club's members, Manfred Radius, is an airshow aerobatic
glider pilot who ends his show with an inverted pass to cut a ribbon
with his V-tail (Salto).http://www.radiusairshows.com/

"tongue-in-cheek" and "fatality" don't usually go together.

Sarcasm, on the other hand...

Personally, I think Cookie is just being a jerk, with a hard-on about
"low passes", "contest finishes", whatever you want to call them.

If he really put a little thought into it, he would realize that the
real problem with our apalling safety record is that so many glider
pilots in the US are poorly trained, lack currency, or do not take the
time to improve their skills.

And our gliding culture has split us into groups that regard the
others with disdain; Twirlybirds vs glassholes, local fun flyers vs
fanatical racers, high-tech vs old school simple.

Instead of enjoying the range of adventures that soaring allows, and
learning (and respecting) what other glider pilots do, instead we
accuse them, without basis usually, of "unsafe activities" if they
don't fit our definition of a glider pilot.

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Statistically, it's probably safer to finish a flight with a low pass
than a conventional pattern!

Kirk
66

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...est_safety.ppt

Uvalde and wurstboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind fololwed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

John Cochrane

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,

Kirk
66

Kirt, I can remember 2 right off the top of my head, not counting the
recent one in Idaho.
Uvalde '86 and Cal City ? date.
Type in "finish line accidents" or "low pass accidents" in "search
this group" above and you'll get an afternoons worth of reading.
BTW, the 50 foot line finish is still in the US Rules.
Cheers,
JJ

On Aug 25, 2:53*pm, jsbrake wrote:
Kirk, I think Cookie was being rather tongue-in-cheek... reference his
line: "Especially if you don't mind the occasional fatality..........
"

One of my club's members, Manfred Radius, is an airshow aerobatic
glider pilot who ends his show with an inverted pass to cut a ribbon
with his V-tail (Salto).http://www.radiusairshows.com/

Here in Arlington Washington our club regularly provides free tows to
an aerobatic sailplane pilot that for the last 2 years has given a
great performance that ends with a gear up landing. The idea behind
the free tows is that it's good for soaring..............sorta like
landing gear up in front of hundreds of spectators.

Brad