FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1

1) I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?

Yes, you may log the time actually spent as a safety pilot as PIC.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft?

Separate endorsements are needed for high performance and complex airplanes.

14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except
as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a
seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller)...
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may
act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an
engine of more than 200 horsepower)...

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.

You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be rated
in the category and class of the aircraft.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

"John T" wrote in message
ws.com

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.

You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be
rated in the category and class of the aircraft.

Actually, now that I re-read the FAR sections I quoted (61.31), I think Jose
may be right. This sounds like a good question to fire off to the local
FSDO and/or AOPA.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

FryGuy wrote:

I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
there is one I would appreciate it. Here they a

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
PIC. Is this correct?

Cannot log PIC but can log Second in command.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

Depends on the owner's insurance company's requirements for that
particular aircraft.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate
category and class ratings.

Airplane, single engine land. What does your certificate say? Does it
say high-performance or complex?

"john smith" wrote in message


Airplane, single engine land. What does your certificate say? Does it
say high-performance or complex?

Would the certificate ever say "high-performance" or "complex"? Or would
that be just the logbook?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

It's just a logbook entry.

Dave Reinhart


John T wrote:

"john smith" wrote in message


Airplane, single engine land. What does your certificate say? Does it
say high-performance or complex?

Would the certificate ever say "high-performance" or "complex"? Or would
that be just the logbook?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1

1) I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an
endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP?

According to AOPA:
quote
We have a letter of interpretation from the FAA on this topic. According to
the letter, a safety pilot who does not have a complex or high-performance
endorsement can act as such, assuming they are appropriately rated in the
aircraft (ASEL, etc). However, because they do not have the appropriate
endorsement, they cannot act as PIC. This means the safety pilot would have
to log SIC for the flight.
/quote

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

FryGuy wrote in message . 41...
I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
there is one I would appreciate it. Here they a

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
PIC. Is this correct?

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate
category and class ratings.

Thanks for the information!

Jeff Frey



the reg you are looking for is 61.31, paragraphs (e) and (f). basically,
what jose said is correct -- you may serve as safety pilot without the
endorsements required by 61.31, but you may not act as pic, and therefore
cannot log the time as pic. you can, however, log the time as sic. once
you get the endorsement(s) you can log pic if you act as pic, which must
be by prior arrangement with the flying pilot. [anytime two pilots are
in an aircraft, it is a good idea to settle who is pic prior to the
flight. it is also a good idea to discuss which duties each will perform.]

hth,

g_a

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:06:25 GMT, "John T" wrote:

"FryGuy" wrote in message
. 41

1) I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?

Yes, you may log the time actually spent as a safety pilot as PIC.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft?

Separate endorsements are needed for high performance and complex airplanes.

14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except
as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a
seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller)...
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may
act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an
engine of more than 200 horsepower)...

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.

You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be rated
in the category and class of the aircraft.

IE Single engine land.

OTOH, I fly high performance/complex/retract. Now days I only care
that the safety pilot know what they are doing. When I was a
beginning student, I wanted some on in the right seat who could take
over if I screwed up. I want a pair of eyes that are busy looking
outside and at least somewhat familiar with the system.

Even now, although I say I only want a set of eyes and ears, the first
time someone serves as safety pilot with me, we go out and spend an
hour doing maneuvers so they can get familiar with the airplane and
its characteristics and that includes stalls and emergency procedures.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Andrew Koenig wrote

Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only
log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole
manipulator of the controls.

Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot
and safety Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC.

Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that.

In what respect do they differ? If it is my airplane and I am
the pilot flying with a hood on, I tell the safety pilot that I
am the PIC and I log PIC on two accounts. First I am the sole
manipulator of the controls and second because I AM the PIC. He
logs SIC. Second case, I am the pilot flying and I tell the
safety pilot that he is the PIC for the flight. I log PIC since
I am the sole manipulator of the controls AND he logs PIC because
he really is the PIC. See my original statement.

I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for
each kind of high-performance airplane.

Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a
Bonanza.

That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're
endorsed for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements.

On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I
don't think that endorsement is valid for a 182.

You are confusing "High Performance" and "Complex". The C-182 is
both complex and high performance. The C-177RG is only complex.
A "complex" endorsement is good for all complex airplanes, a "high
performance" endorsement is good for all types of high performance
airplanes.

Bob Moore
ATP CFII

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:41:21 GMT, Robert Moore wrote:

You are confusing "High Performance" and "Complex". The C-182 is
both complex and high performance. The C-177RG is only complex.

Surely you mean the C-182RG is both complex & high perf. The C-182 is
only "high performance". The C-177RG is, of course, "complex" but not
"high performance".

A "complex" endorsement is good for all complex airplanes, a "high
performance" endorsement is good for all types of high performance
airplanes.

True.


Morris