Interesting optical effect

On a commercial flight recently, I saw a fascinating optical effect.
I believe I understand what I saw, but would appreciate confirmation
from experienced flyers out there.

We were at cruising altitude, mid-trip. The air was clear, except
for a thin haze layer below us, perhaps midway between the aircraft
and the ground. Visible in that haze was an image of the sun, cast
presumably by tiny lakes below us. Larger lakes didn't work - the
cast reflection would get too large and out-of-focus.

You all probably know about using pinhole viewers to see an eclipse.
You may also know that you can view an eclipse with a fragment of a
mirror, if it is small enough (or if you cover up most of a larger
mirror, leaving a small hole). It will project a perfect image of
the eclipsed sun on a convenient wall or floor. I'm pretty sure this
is what I was seeing from the air, projected on that flat haze layer.

My questions:

1) Has anyone else seen this effect? Is it well-known?

2) (the real question) has anyone seen it during an eclipse? Can you
confirm that it gives you an eclipsed image?

- Bo

"Robert Lyons"
You all probably know about using pinhole viewers to see an eclipse.
You may also know that you can view an eclipse with a fragment of a
mirror, if it is small enough (or if you cover up most of a larger
mirror, leaving a small hole). It will project a perfect image of
the eclipsed sun on a convenient wall or floor. I'm pretty sure this
is what I was seeing from the air, projected on that flat haze layer.

A cute pinhole eclipse image I've seen was in a conference room with thin
slat blinds covering the windows. Every slat had two or more little holes
for string or something. Every holes shadow projected on the floor showed a
perfect little eclipse. There many dozens of them.

Maule Driver wrote:

"Robert Lyons"

You all probably know about using pinhole viewers to see an eclipse.
You may also know that you can view an eclipse with a fragment of a
mirror, if it is small enough (or if you cover up most of a larger
mirror, leaving a small hole). It will project a perfect image of
the eclipsed sun on a convenient wall or floor. I'm pretty sure this
is what I was seeing from the air, projected on that flat haze layer.


A cute pinhole eclipse image I've seen was in a conference room with thin
slat blinds covering the windows. Every slat had two or more little holes
for string or something. Every holes shadow projected on the floor showed a
perfect little eclipse. There many dozens of them.




Yup - I've seen a similar effect with sunlight coming through
the canopy of a tree. Thousands of little eclipse images. The
holes have to be quite small relative to the size of the cast
image, in order to keep the projection in focus.

The in-the-air version I saw was similar, in that it didn't
work if we were passing over a larger lake. If the lake was
large enough for me to see it clearly, it was too big, and the
resulting image was distorted and out-of-focus. The lakes
that worked the best were barely visible to me - the tiniest
pinpricks of reflected light. That's what convinced me that I
was interpreting the phenomenon correctly.

- Bo

Robert Lyons wrote:

We were at cruising altitude, mid-trip. The air was clear, except
for a thin haze layer below us, perhaps midway between the aircraft
and the ground. Visible in that haze was an image of the sun, cast
presumably by tiny lakes below us. Larger lakes didn't work - the
cast reflection would get too large and out-of-focus.

Sounds similar to an effect called "sun dogs". I've only seen it once, and then
only from the ground.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

This may be something different, but I saw this flying to Lake George two
weeks ago. I was about 1000' above the deck with the Sun high above me. My
frontseat passenger keep saying a circular rainbow was following us and that
the plane's shadow was in the middle of it. She took a picture of it that I
thought would never show up. But it did. I have to get her to scan it.

I told a friend of mine about it and he said that effect has a name. He
found it on the web and sent me this link:

http://www.touchingthelight.co.uk/features/brocken.htm

Low and behold...that is what we saw.

Kobra

"Robert Lyons" wrote in message
...
On a commercial flight recently, I saw a fascinating optical effect.
I believe I understand what I saw, but would appreciate confirmation
from experienced flyers out there.

We were at cruising altitude, mid-trip. The air was clear, except
for a thin haze layer below us, perhaps midway between the aircraft
and the ground. Visible in that haze was an image of the sun, cast
presumably by tiny lakes below us. Larger lakes didn't work - the
cast reflection would get too large and out-of-focus.

You all probably know about using pinhole viewers to see an eclipse.
You may also know that you can view an eclipse with a fragment of a
mirror, if it is small enough (or if you cover up most of a larger
mirror, leaving a small hole). It will project a perfect image of
the eclipsed sun on a convenient wall or floor. I'm pretty sure this
is what I was seeing from the air, projected on that flat haze layer.

My questions:

1) Has anyone else seen this effect? Is it well-known?

2) (the real question) has anyone seen it during an eclipse? Can you
confirm that it gives you an eclipsed image?

- Bo

"Kobra" wrote in message
...
This may be something different, but I saw this flying to Lake George two
weeks ago. I was about 1000' above the deck with the Sun high above me.
My
frontseat passenger keep saying a circular rainbow was following us and
that
the plane's shadow was in the middle of it.

All rainbows are circular. It just happens that when you are standing on
flat ground, you can't see the whole rainbow.

Since the center of any rainbow (all of which are circular) is a point on a
line projected from the light source through the viewer, the shadow of the
viewer (an airplane in your case) will always be smack in the center of the
rainbow, even if the viewer is moving.

For more sunlight effects, just look at your shadow on the ground at any
time during the day. Depending on the time of day and where your shadow is,
you'll see a variety of effects. My two favorite ones are the bright spot
with the shadow in the middle that you see on forested areas (due to the way
the trees reflect the sunlight, the reflection is brightest where the sun is
directly behind the viewer), and the moving blob of red you see when your
shadow is passing over a large parking lot (the taillight reflectors reflect
the sunlight back to you very brightly).

I told a friend of mine about it and he said that effect has a name. He
found it on the web and sent me this link:

http://www.touchingthelight.co.uk/features/brocken.htm

Low and behold...that is what we saw.

If you saw that, I'd suggest you were flying too low.

Seriously though, the effect described by the link you provided appears to
be specifically restricted to human shadows atop a shadow of terrain
(usually a peak), along with a rainbow. I wouldn't use the term they are
using to describe the similar thing viewed from aloft in an airplane.

Pete

Two weeks ago (Friday) we flew from NC to Saratoga Springs. My co-pilot
kept talking about the colors in the clouds. It was a sparkling CAVU day at
7500 feet over NJ and NY. I was too busy looking out the other side
reliving past flights.

I explained that the clouds below us were reflecting the fall colors on the
ground. She insisted that it wasn't that and wen I looked, we had rainbow
circles on each cloud as we passed. Quite beautiful. A fantastic day to
fly.

Now, who can explain the bright spot that our plane projects down sun? It's
like a giant headlight and is particularly noticeable late in the day with
the sun behind.

"Kobra" wrote in message
...
This may be something different, but I saw this flying to Lake George two
weeks ago. I was about 1000' above the deck with the Sun high above me.
My
frontseat passenger keep saying a circular rainbow was following us and
that
the plane's shadow was in the middle of it. She took a picture of it that
I
thought would never show up. But it did. I have to get her to scan it.

I told a friend of mine about it and he said that effect has a name. He
found it on the web and sent me this link:

http://www.touchingthelight.co.uk/features/brocken.htm

Low and behold...that is what we saw.

Kobra

"Robert Lyons" wrote in message
...
On a commercial flight recently, I saw a fascinating optical effect.
I believe I understand what I saw, but would appreciate confirmation
from experienced flyers out there.

We were at cruising altitude, mid-trip. The air was clear, except
for a thin haze layer below us, perhaps midway between the aircraft
and the ground. Visible in that haze was an image of the sun, cast
presumably by tiny lakes below us. Larger lakes didn't work - the
cast reflection would get too large and out-of-focus.

You all probably know about using pinhole viewers to see an eclipse.
You may also know that you can view an eclipse with a fragment of a
mirror, if it is small enough (or if you cover up most of a larger
mirror, leaving a small hole). It will project a perfect image of
the eclipsed sun on a convenient wall or floor. I'm pretty sure this
is what I was seeing from the air, projected on that flat haze layer.

My questions:

1) Has anyone else seen this effect? Is it well-known?

2) (the real question) has anyone seen it during an eclipse? Can you
confirm that it gives you an eclipsed image?

- Bo

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
Now, who can explain the bright spot that our plane projects down sun?
It's
like a giant headlight and is particularly noticeable late in the day with
the sun behind.

See my other post. That "bright spot" is simply your position relative to a
reflective surface. Your plane isn't projecting it. That just happens to
be the spot where the sunlight is reflected by the greatest amount.

Note that "reflective surface" doesn't have to be man-made. Trees, grass,
shrubs, snow, sand, etc. are all reflective to some degree (just as you are
reflective ).

Pete

Maule Driver wrote:

Now, who can explain the bright spot that our plane projects down sun? It's
like a giant headlight and is particularly noticeable late in the day with
the sun behind.

You may be describing the effect I saw, or you may be describing the effect
that Peter Duniho already told you about: the point of highest reflectivity
of the clouds.

The difference is whether the image is an in-focus view of the sun (it'll be
exactly the same apparent size as the sun, too) or whether it's a diffuse
zone of brightness with no particular focus.

The optical effect I'm asking about would be the in-focus sun image, and
could not be seen when the deck is relatively solid, as it depends on light
reflecting from a lake (i.e. on the *ground*, where most well-behaved lakes
are found) and projecting onto a thin haze-layer. It probably also requires
an inversion or some other mechanism of making a boundary to hold the thin
haze layer.

The effect Peter is describing (if I understand correctly) should be very
common, basically visible whenever you are flying over the deck. It's the
light of the sun, back-scattering off the clouds. The ground needn't be at all
visible (better if it's not, in fact) and the 'glow' will be diffuse and un-
focused.

Now, you say it's "like a giant headlight" ... in focus, or not?

- Bo

"Robert Lyons"
The effect Peter is describing (if I understand correctly) should be very
common, basically visible whenever you are flying over the deck. It's the
light of the sun, back-scattering off the clouds. The ground needn't be at
all
visible (better if it's not, in fact) and the 'glow' will be diffuse and
un-
focused.

Actually I see it on the ground but it is diffuse and unfocused - like a
very strong headlight shining on a very distant area. You just get a
diffuse bright spot.

I think I get Peter's concept and understand it but can't quite get it to
'intuit'. But makes some sense. Can't quite understand why the area on the
ground where sunlight would reflect back at 180deg (or normal to the average
surface) would be so much brighter than points where the sunlight would
reflect back at say 45 deg to the avg surface. Doesn't make sense when I
think of a forest of trees, but it is quite clear when same light refects of
a truck on a highway. So I kind of get it. Thanks Peter and Robert.