Snag in x/c planning

I was going to ask my CFI these questions but I figured these groups
are so rich with information and opinions that I would start here.

I am a 120 hr PP planning a VFR X/C from Bowman field Louisville, KY
(KLOU) to Mattoon, IL (KMTO) this weekend. According to the new AOPA
flight planner (very cool, by the way)this takes me right through the
middle of a TFR southwest of the Hoosier Vortac. To complicate things
there is a restricted area smack dab in the middle of the TFR (these
are ground to... well higher than I can fly right?). My gut is
telling me not to chance being where I'm not supposed to be and make
the trip via Bloomington,IN (KBMG)to avoid any possible trouble . If
you look at the sectional there aren't too many land marks in that
area and it would be easy fly over the TFR but through the resticted
area. I have a rather old GPS on board that is very small, in a
strange place (down and to the right of the yoke), and it is as old as
dirt..no telling when it was last updated. So here are some
questions..

1)So what do you guys think? Do I fly over it? Or am I asking for
trouble? (this TFR, if I understand correctly, is from the ground to
5000 AGL). Obviously, this would be a bad place to loose the engine!

2)If I fly direct will ATC (flight following) help me stay clear or
will they let me wander into the restricted area and then say, "now
look what you've done dumbass...land and give us a call" (In so many
words) My girlfriend isn't a huge fan of small planes anyway so an
F-16 on my wingtip would be bad, really bad.

3) If I go via BMG how do I ask for flight following? I am assuming
that I just tell them that I am going to MTO via BMG at 7,500. If
this is correct and I am granted flight following am I obligated to
fly all the way to BMG or can I turn on course to MTO a little south
of BMG?

4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc. Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

Thanks in advace guys and gals!

Greg

Greg wrote:
I was going to ask my CFI these questions but I figured these groups
are so rich with information and opinions that I would start here.

I am a 120 hr PP planning a VFR X/C from Bowman field Louisville, KY
(KLOU) to Mattoon, IL (KMTO) this weekend. According to the new AOPA
flight planner (very cool, by the way)this takes me right through the
middle of a TFR southwest of the Hoosier Vortac. To complicate things
there is a restricted area smack dab in the middle of the TFR (these
are ground to... well higher than I can fly right?). My gut is
telling me not to chance being where I'm not supposed to be and make
the trip via Bloomington,IN (KBMG)to avoid any possible trouble . If
you look at the sectional there aren't too many land marks in that
area and it would be easy fly over the TFR but through the resticted
area. I have a rather old GPS on board that is very small, in a
strange place (down and to the right of the yoke), and it is as old as
dirt..no telling when it was last updated. So here are some
questions..

1)So what do you guys think? Do I fly over it? Or am I asking for
trouble? (this TFR, if I understand correctly, is from the ground to
5000 AGL). Obviously, this would be a bad place to loose the engine!

I haven't looked at the charts, so taking what you say at face value. If you're
not confident you can navigate so as to miss the restricted area, don't go that
way. Make a plan you can be confident in. I wouldn't worry too much about losing
an engine over the TFR. If your one and only engine goes quiet, busting a TFR is
the least of your troubles.


2)If I fly direct will ATC (flight following) help me stay clear or
will they let me wander into the restricted area and then say, "now
look what you've done dumbass...land and give us a call" (In so many
words) My girlfriend isn't a huge fan of small planes anyway so an
F-16 on my wingtip would be bad, really bad.

Controllers will generally try to be helpful, but they have no obligation to
keep you clear of the restricted area. That's your responsibility. Have a plan
that you can execute without their help.


3) If I go via BMG how do I ask for flight following? I am assuming
that I just tell them that I am going to MTO via BMG at 7,500. If
this is correct and I am granted flight following am I obligated to
fly all the way to BMG or can I turn on course to MTO a little south
of BMG?

Asking for flight following doesn't obligate you to follow any particular route,
unless the controller says "advise of any changes in heading or altitude". As a
courtesy, tell the controller you're turning off the route you had told him you
were taking. The response will probably be "roger, maintain VFR".


4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc.

Fligh****ch is always on 122.0, period. You may or may not raise anyone on the
fligh****ch frequency, however. Coverage is spotty. There is better coverage, at
least in mid-Atlantic states where I mostly fly, for the discrete FSS
frequencies (other than 122.0).

The frequency box for the VOR on the sectional chart has frequencies for
contacting FSS. Learn how to read it. It tells you when to listen on the VOR
frequency, and what frequency to transmit on to contact FSS.

The callup is (for example) "Raleigh Radio, Cessna 12345, 10 south of the
Kinston VOR, listening Kinston VOR", or "Raleigh Radio, Cessna 12345, 10 south
of the Kinston VOR, 122.65". You give your location so FSS knows which
transmitter to use. You give the freq you are listening on, because the FSS
specialist may be monitoring multiple freqs and might not catch which one you
are calling on, otherwise. Of course, as always, listen first, then talk.

Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

"Request current and forecast weather for location" or "we'll be following V45
northwest, request forecast weather along that route", etc. No need for any
stilted, formatted request style, just be conversational and tell them what you
want.


Thanks in advace guys and gals!

Greg

Have a nice trip. You probably will benefit from discussing your questions with
your CFI as well.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
The frequency box for the VOR on the sectional chart has frequencies for
contacting FSS. Learn how to read it. It tells you when to listen on the
VOR
frequency, and what frequency to transmit on to contact FSS.

I only had to do this once, meaning listening on a VOR while transmitting on
another frequency. I sorta knew how to do it, but never having done it, I
was a little confused in the cockpit. I couldn't land at my intended airport
due to high crosswinds, so I had to close my flight plan on the radio, not
the telephone. Well, I did it, but I found it distracting and hard to hear
the FSS person over the VOR ident. This one had the voice saying the name
over and over. I always wondered if I did something wrong.

When you use the VOR for remote transmissions do you always hear the the
ident? Is there another way?

Thanks,

-Trent
PP-ASEL

The dimensions of the restricted area are on the back of the sectional,
together with hours of operation and the controlling facility. Your concern
might be eliminated by simply saying "Is restricted area R-xxx hot?" If it
is not, you are in good shape. If it is, tell the controller that you are
going to fly around it (or over it, if possible).

I stuck KLOU direct KMTO into Aeroplanner and didn't see the problems you
relate. Maybe AOPA knows something that Aeroplanner doesn't know.

ATC has no responsibility to keep you clear of an active restricted
area...that is your baby. But asking is simple. After you are airborne and
clear of the KLOU Class D, go to 123.675 and say "Departure, Cessna xxxxx
VFR Bowman Field to Mattoon, IL, request flight following." You might even
be able to shortcut the situation by telling the tower operator that you
will be asking for FF...in most cases, the tower will coordinate with the
radar facility and they will be waiting for your call.

Flight following does not control your flight...you do. Just tell them if
you do something unexpected, like turn 90 degrees. You're not required to
advise them of altitude changes, but it helps them with planning if you do.

Bob Gardner


"Greg" wrote in message
om...
I was going to ask my CFI these questions but I figured these groups
are so rich with information and opinions that I would start here.

I am a 120 hr PP planning a VFR X/C from Bowman field Louisville, KY
(KLOU) to Mattoon, IL (KMTO) this weekend. According to the new AOPA
flight planner (very cool, by the way)this takes me right through the
middle of a TFR southwest of the Hoosier Vortac. To complicate things
there is a restricted area smack dab in the middle of the TFR (these
are ground to... well higher than I can fly right?). My gut is
telling me not to chance being where I'm not supposed to be and make
the trip via Bloomington,IN (KBMG)to avoid any possible trouble . If
you look at the sectional there aren't too many land marks in that
area and it would be easy fly over the TFR but through the resticted
area. I have a rather old GPS on board that is very small, in a
strange place (down and to the right of the yoke), and it is as old as
dirt..no telling when it was last updated. So here are some
questions..

1)So what do you guys think? Do I fly over it? Or am I asking for
trouble? (this TFR, if I understand correctly, is from the ground to
5000 AGL). Obviously, this would be a bad place to loose the engine!

2)If I fly direct will ATC (flight following) help me stay clear or
will they let me wander into the restricted area and then say, "now
look what you've done dumbass...land and give us a call" (In so many
words) My girlfriend isn't a huge fan of small planes anyway so an
F-16 on my wingtip would be bad, really bad.

3) If I go via BMG how do I ask for flight following? I am assuming
that I just tell them that I am going to MTO via BMG at 7,500. If
this is correct and I am granted flight following am I obligated to
fly all the way to BMG or can I turn on course to MTO a little south
of BMG?

4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc. Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

Thanks in advace guys and gals!

Greg

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:egzsb.182305
I stuck KLOU direct KMTO into Aeroplanner and didn't see the problems you
relate. Maybe AOPA knows something that Aeroplanner doesn't know.

Interesting..i know this TFR has been in effect for some time as I
have been warned of its existance on several flights by FSS. This
time is the first time, however, that I needed to fly right through
it.


be able to shortcut the situation by telling the tower operator that you
will be asking for FF...in most cases, the tower will coordinate with the
radar facility and they will be waiting for your call.

No problem at LOU...the ground controller takes care of all of it. I
have learned that LOU is one of the best around for this. (I have
embarrased myself at other airports by asking the ground controller
for flight following...they thought I was nuts! I thought all class
D's coordinated FF.) Getting flight following is not a problem...but
because I am always assigned an initial heading before I leave the
ground I wondered what the proper way to tell them I'm going to BMG
first instead of going direct to MTO.


Flight following does not control your flight...you do. Just tell them if
you do something unexpected, like turn 90 degrees. You're not required to
advise them of altitude changes, but it helps them with planning if you do.


Keep in mind LOU is under busy Class C airspace (lots of heavy UPS
jets)and my initial heading to either airport will take me right
through the inner ring so for the first several miles I am under their
control. Just thought it would be good to let them know what my true
intentions were.

Bob Gardner

Thanks for your help Bob! Your books helped get me my PPL!

(Greg) wrote in message . com...

No problem at LOU...the ground controller takes care of all of it. I
have learned that LOU is one of the best around for this. (I have
embarrased myself at other airports by asking the ground controller
for flight following...they thought I was nuts! I thought all class
D's coordinated FF.)

Bless your little heart Greg, so they should...just keep asking!!!
Don't be embarrassed, just say "OK, thanks, my home airport does this"
if they no.

And sometimes you'll hit the jackpot and meet someone who'll do
it for you, even at airports which don't normally do this.

ground I wondered what the proper way to tell them I'm going to BMG
first instead of going direct to MTO.

Just tell them. "Cessna 1234 is VFR to Mattoon via Bloomington"
(although as I mentioned in another post, why not do Victor airways
if you aren't going direct?)

Cheers,
Sydney

Just tell them. "Cessna 1234 is VFR to Mattoon via Bloomington"
(although as I mentioned in another post, why not do Victor airways
if you aren't going direct?)

Cheers,
Sydney

Hmmmm...Never considered victor airways...not sure what the advantage
is...is there one? Seems like it is a longer route and more dangerous
because of increased traffic in a smaller space...am I wrong?

(Greg) wrote in message . com...
Just tell them. "Cessna 1234 is VFR to Mattoon via Bloomington"
(although as I mentioned in another post, why not do Victor airways
if you aren't going direct?)

Hmmmm...Never considered victor airways...not sure what the advantage
is...is there one? Seems like it is a longer route and more dangerous
because of increased traffic in a smaller space...am I wrong?

Well this might be more information than you want .

Yes, Victor airways will be longer than the direct route for your
specific destination this time (about 9% longer to be exact)

However, they would be shorter than the alternate route you suggested
(via Bloomington).

For longer trips, the difference between a GPS direct route
and a judicious choice of Victor airways and VOR direct routing
is often trivial -- 1-2%.

I don't think Victor airways have more traffic at low altitudes
now-a-days. I believe they are actually relatively sparsely populated
because most people are going GPS direct . The same does
not apply to VORs which are near major flight training centers
or are fixes for instrument approaches. Know what those are
in your area and avoid.

In general, Victor airways have several advantages.

One advantage of Victor airways is positive course guidance
from your Nav radios (esp. above the minimum enroute altitute
which is printed on IFR charts). They solve your original
problem of ensuring you'll keep clear of the TFR while giving
you less of a detour than Bloomington.

Another advantage of Victor airways is ease of route planning
if you get your hands on a set of IFR low-altitude enroute charts
(This is not difficult to obtain for free, because they expire
every 56 days. Ask a friend with an instrument rating, ask a
pilot shop if they will give you expired charts for 'educational
purposes', or post a note on an airport bulletin board.) On
the IFR chart, "minimum enroute altitudes" for nav reception,
VOR radials which are generally close to magnetic heading, and
distances for each segment are printed on the chart. So you
note them down, sum the distances, calculate a few groundspeeds
and ETAs, and you're done. (IFR low-altitude enroutes have other
handy uses for the VFR pilot. Recommend 'em.)

If you're sitting in a warm room with a computer and printer handy,
the flight planning advantage is negligable, but if you're sitting
at a small table in a drafty and ill-lit FBO, it can be way faster.

Lastly, Victor airways give you the advantage of a route you
can easily and succinctly describe, which will be comprehensible
to ATC computers. This is helpful when requesting flight following
especially if your destination airport lies in a different Center
and might not be in the ATC computers. (It is a scandal that
apparently my used Palm VIIx has more memory than the computers being
used in ATC Centers but I digress)

If you're operating IFR, a route filed by airways makes it easier
for ATC to understand what you might do in the event of a Comm failure,
and often easier for you to transition in an orderly way from the
enroute structure to the approach.

The major disadvantage of Victor airways is that as you've noted,
for relatively short trips in the Midwest (say 100-200 miles) they
often do add appreciably to the length of the trip, by 10% or so.
In the East IM(L)E this is less of a factor since it seems you
can't sneeze over a chart without dripping on a VOR.

OK, if they're so great, is that how I file? Depends. For relatively
short local trips (say 200 nm) almost never. For longer trips (say
900 miles or so) we used to be GPS direct, but increasingly we're
filing VOR and Victor airway routing, especially IFR. It's really
what the system was designed for in several ways, it doesn't delay
us much, and it's sometimes easier when we have to make large detours
for wx while enroute.

BTW I really like the FBO at your airport (LOU); very nice place.
How's the restaurant on the field, though? Worth trying?

FWIW,
Sydney

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:egzsb.182305$HS4.1512693@attbi_s01...


I stuck KLOU direct KMTO into Aeroplanner and didn't see the problems you
relate. Maybe AOPA knows something that Aeroplanner doesn't know.


Interesting I just checked AOPA flight planner again and the TFR is
gone...no wonder you couldn't see it Bob.I knew they called it
"temporary" for a reason, but to the best of my knowledge it has been
active for a couple of years. Anyone know more about this than I?
where did it go and will it be back? I can't get on the AOPA web
site...

Nevermind...

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite...03-4-102x.html


I'm going Direct! What are the chances of looking at he TFR this AM,
asking a question about it and then having it disappear the same day.
I feel like I've influenced FAA policy!