Another stall spin

From TA's Dansville contest write-up:
"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."
http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/

JP

Originally Posted by Jp Stewart

From TA's Dansville contest write-up:
"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."
http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/

JP

Amazing that almost every time we read about such an incident the pilot is highly rated and experienced. Is it that with experience comes complacency? This gentleman was a designated examiner, makes a relative newbie such as myself wonder. Condolences to the family.

Walt

On 8/26/2012 1:20 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Jp Stewart;822355 Wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:
"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent
stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA
Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into
a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part
of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred.
All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that
apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun
in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical
fatality this season here on the east coast)."
http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/

JP

Amazing that almost every time we read about such an incident the pilot
is highly rated and experienced. Is it that with experience comes
complacency? This gentleman was a designated examiner, makes a relative
newbie such as myself wonder. Condolences to the family.

Walt


My condolences to family, friends and Finger Lakes Soaring Club members.
Terrible and sad...

Obviously only Jim Rizzo could answer your question were it directed his way.

To your question's most general sense, I suspect there are some pilots for
whom experience does somewhat correlate to complacency, in certain things.
It's only human nature.

But my own thinking on such life-and-death matters, and the fact the question
is in your mind right now, strongly suggest to me that individuals DO contain
within them the ability to NOT fall (thought) prey to complacency. Complacency
isn't pre-ordained, it's a (sometimes, non-)decision we choose to make. To my
way of thinking, life and death flying situations deserve to be approached
with the active thought, "What could go wrong in this situation? If so, what
are my 'outs'?" If the "outs" aren't guaranteed to keep you alive, then
perhaps you shouldn't be "playing there." If Joe Pilot chooses to NOT think
this way, then J.P. may or not be complacent, but J.P. arguably is not as
situationally aware as fragile flesh might soon wish it had been...

Bob W.

On Aug 26, 12:20*pm, Walt Connelly
wrote:

Is it that with experience comes
complacency?

Well, one thing I've observed from a few accidents around my area is
that people confuse "total time" with "currency". They are two VERY
different things. A high-time pilot can be rusty and out-of-practice,
and therefore exhibit sub-par airmanship just as easily as a low-time
pilot. But I've seen a lot of people show extreme deference to high-
time pilots, and simply assume that said pilot is automatically
qualified, current, and safe to fly whenever they show up.

Showing respect is fine; but we do everyone a disservice when we
abdicate our responsibility to exercise good judgment about the safety
of an operation, and fail to act as checks-and-balances on one
another. No one - no matter their total experience-level - is immune
to making a mistake, becoming complacent, or simply mis-estimating our
skills & preparedness.

Given the other comments in this thread, the above comments may not
apply in this specific incident; but think about it the next time you
see a high-time pilot show up at the airport for the first time in a
while. Or if you notice someone who's strictly been giving rides and
instruction for months suddenly head out for a cross-country flight.
Stop, ask him/her when they last flew. Offer to provide help, or to
offer a CAC or PCC. Offer to double-check their safety gear /
supplies. You have to be polite, respectful, and diplomatic about
this; but don't just assume that because they're high-time that they
deserve a hands-off/red-carpet treatment. If we help each other out,
we can catch each other's mistakes, and have fewer devastated friends
and family.

--Noel

Why?? Again and again. Why do we think it won't happen to me? Why do we wait too late to be prep'ed to land? Why do we keep hearing the same story? No, we don't know why Jim crashed for sure....but we know one possibility most of us actually never practice in our personal planes....sure we do it every 2 years in a BFR flying a 103, 2-33, or K-21....I will be honest and say I've never practiced a spin in my ASW-20CL with winglets....my memory of what the early '20's (of which I once co-owned, involved in a fatal crash in '80)was capable of doing....... low, slow, turning, with flaps in 4.

Sad string of events.

On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:

"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)."

http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/



JP

On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:22:28 PM UTC-5, Gary Adams wrote:
Why?? Again and again. Why do we think it won't happen to me? Why do we wait too late to be prep'ed to land? Why do we keep hearing the same story? No, we don't know why Jim crashed for sure....but we know one possibility most of us actually never practice in our personal planes....sure we do it every 2 years in a BFR flying a 103, 2-33, or K-21....I will be honest and say I've never practiced a spin in my ASW-20CL with winglets....my memory of what the early '20's (of which I once co-owned, involved in a fatal crash in '80)was capable of doing....... low, slow, turning, with flaps in 4. Sad string of events. On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote: From TA's Dansville contest write-up: "Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)." http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/ JP

With all humility, maybe I can offer a plausible explanation. Yesterday I landed-out at an airport which was not my intended destination. After a 3.5 hr flight with lots of thermalling I was in the pattern at this airport working a very weak thermal before putting the gear down to land. Mind you I have flown the same '28 for the past 8 years. Normally I thermal around 50 kts but will go down to 45 kts on occasion. While working this weak thermal I shockingly noticed the airspeed in the low 40s. I don't recall the altitude at which it changes, but at high altitude while thermalling, the downward wing moves backwards in relation to the ground and at low altitude the wing moves forward in relation to the ground. Without strict airspeed discipline it tempting to make the downward wing stop moving forward so rapidly and airspeed can become too slow. My condolences to family and friends.

Tom

More sad news. I am surprised to hear that many pilots don't practice spins. I spin my ship regularly - typically in thermalling configuration, as many entry modes as I can come up with, left and right. I focus on recognition and recovery techniques and note the altitude required. If it's legal/possible to do in the ship you fly regularly it's worth practicing - always with a chute, lots of altitude and c.g. double-checked beforehand.

9B

I am especially saddened to hear this, Jim was a good friend and a great guy
I've know for probably more than 30 years. Jim was not only a good friend
but a great asset to his club and the people around him, he was always jolly
and helpful, willing to take on the extra responsibilities and help promote
his club and help those around him. I, in fact had just flown with Jim on
the practice day at Region III in the clubs K21 to renew my CFI certificate,
together we had a good flight that included working some rough choppy
thermal to complete the exam. I know there will be a void again losing yet
another of my soaring pals and his loss will be deeply felt by all that knew
him.
tim Mara

"Jp Stewart" wrote in message
...
From TA's Dansville contest write-up:
"Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent
stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA
Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a
farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the
contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know
is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was
trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it
should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the
east coast)."
http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/

JP

On Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:11:45 AM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote:
From TA's Dansville contest write-up: "Unfortunately, we were also saddened to hear of yet another apparent stall-spin fatality; Jim Rizzo, Finger Lakes club president and FAA Designated Examiner for the area was killed when his glider crashed into a farmer’s field not far from the Dansville airport. Jim was not part of the contest and was just flying locally when the accident occurred. All we know is what the farmer said (and this is 3rd hand to me) that apparently Jim was trying to thermal away from a low altitude and spun in (sound familiar? – it should – this is the 3rd almost identical fatality this season here on the east coast)." http://soaringcafe.com/2012/08/day-6...ille-region-3/ JP

I'll chime in with Tim. Jim was a great guy and could not do enough to help make his home club go. He always had a smile on his face and a big laugh.
Possibly his apparently having taken nothing to drink after instructing for a while and then going to fly for 3-1/2 hrs or so may have contributed to his error in judgement. Sadly, it appears that he could have straightened out and landed on the airport, albeit with a very low approach.
We HAVE GOT TO STOP THERMALLING LOW. There is no new lesson here. I've lost 3 friends this year to the same mistake.
Sadly
UH

So I am seeing the why do we still thermal low comment, but no one is says how low. I suspect these accidents may not be a low as some of us think. But have no data to back it up.
With so many of us using flight recorders it should be pretty easy to look a few of these accidents and see, but somehow this data never seems to reach us. I can understand some liability issues but it seems like it would be pretty easy to reproduce the data into a generic format that didn't give away the location or ID of what happened but would still allow us to review the flight path of an actual flight that led to the accident.

Brian