Is this the future of our sport?

Will this catch on in the USA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aU...e_gdata_player

It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally.. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

If I can get there in a days drive, sign me up!

P9

Sean,
Grand prix racing works with 15 gliders or less. Any more and the midair potential is too high. There is leeching, waiting, and gaggle flying in GP racing, just like in FAI racing. By the way, FAI tasking at WGC's includes a healthy dose of turn area tasks, just like the USA nats. You suggest allowing handicaps. If so then your "first one home wins" concept is not always correct. To be this mythical "true race" then all gliders need to be the same, so you have a one design contest like they just did in South Africa with JS1s. Winning the final glide is a big component of GP racing, so having the best prepared glider is even more important than in FAI racing. This is why having a Discus 2a is essential over a 2b or LS8 when the GP contest uses standard class ships, or a Diana 2 over an ASW27 in 15m. This limits participation.
Rick Walters

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:28:22 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.



IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.



The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.



Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.



I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.



It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.



I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.



It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.



Sean

On Nov 11, 11:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
...
I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

Why do you assume that it will not be "within" the SSA or not
sanctioned? Have you asked the SSA? Not that I'm aware. Everyone I've
talked to within SSA racing community is very supportive of Grand
Prix. The SSA hugely supported the WGC!

The issue is, I think, that it's not as "easy to set up" as you may
think. There was an effort to set up a US grand prix in Ely Nevada,
which fell apart (I gather, I'm sketchy on details) because of how
hard it was to organize. For all sorts of reasons having nothing to do
with the SSA. (It was a real grand prix, which needs IGC approval.)

This is a volunteer organization. "Someone oughta" is not that
helpful. Organize one!

Especially if all you want is sanction. There is a process for
sanctioning races that don't follow SSA rules. 1-26 are sanctioned
that way. There is a simple checklist of sensible things like "there
must be a CD," "there must be insurance" If you've planned any
sensible race and want SSA sanction, the process is pretty
straightforward. And brings many benefits, including the ssa website
and insurance.

John Cochrane

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:28:22 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.



IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.



The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.



Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.



I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.



It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.



I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.



It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.



Sean

Have to disagree almost completely with Sean that a Grand Prix style contest would change much in the way we race. If leeching was such a huge problem in today's races we would talk more about it. Instead, we are contemplating special training camps to emulate team flying (leeching by another term). If not even willful flying with a partner works, how well does the leech do when the better pilot makes all the good decisions? If more variables are thrown in such as area tasks, the winning pilots invariably will be the ones that are truly deserving, especially over a multi-day contest. We all had the experience that even after a mass-start we only see other competitors around turn points and on final glide.
Since avoiding the 'start gate roulette' would be for me the only advantage of a Grand Prix - especially in a handicapped race - I'd rather stay with the rules we have.

Herb

Scott, start your planning with a local plots event and follow with a Qualifying event.
At the moment the Australian Qualifying Grand Prix is running at my Australian club. It's the second time that the AQGP has been at Lake Keepit. A Standard Class GP is being run 1 hour behind the AQGP, but is under-subscribed.
A club event run primarily to introduce LKSC members to the GP concept was enjoyed by many pilots. With some advice from experienced GP people, this type of event should be easy to get started with.
There were at least five pilots entered in the AQGP who flew in the WGC at Uvalde, but it appears not many pilots have shown up. Sorry, I don't have a link to the SPOT page yet.
Jim

http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/in...ing-grand-prix
http://www.soaringspot.com/2012gpkeepit/

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

No limitation from the SSA that I have seen, the biggest limitations
are the financial issues. We have talked about it at Logan but the
numbers require a strong staff to do it to the level of NZ or Chile.
Here are the issues:
1. Small number of gliders
2. Technical support for tracking and broadcast
3. Chase aircraft to provide relay and photography.


Ideal is near a larger metropolitan area to attract local crowds and
sponsorship. Similar to the Chilean backdrop it would be fun to send
the pilots down to Salt Lake City on the Wasatch Front racing over the
cities below with a helicopter in tow.

Corporate sponsorship would be needed. This would be ideal under
something similar to the Red Bull, Xterra or Jeep racing series. Can
we get TV coverage to run a special on it like the Xterra or Jeep
series programs?

Anyone have the marketing background to sell this to a few sponsors?
Black Diamond is SLC based. who are the other "Adventure" Brands to
get support from?

Sean are you volunteering to organize an event? I can find the
location and crew to help run it.

Tim (TT)

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

The Arizona Soaring Association ran GP races a couple of years, but
early in the spring. Even though conditions weren't great yet, the
contests were FUN! SPOT could be watched by spectators, family,
friends at the airport.

Bob

Grand Prix were originally conceived to make glider racing more of a spectator sport.

We have been running a Grand Prix series at Truckee for the last several years and they are an absolute blast - Pioneered by Sergio Colacevich, we have done close-in lap race (for spectators, friends and family) and 300km O&R formats, all with handicapping (handicap distance so first one back is the winner)

Last GP race was done from Truckee down the spine of the Sierra to Coyote Flat and return, both ways on the west side of Lake Tahoe.

Claims that GP's are safer are on shaky ground - particularly with a close-in regatta start , however Sergio had an algorthm for simultaneous start over a line at the same altitude which worked very well indeed. Safety is largely a function of how the start is organized (or more often, how it is NOT organized)

I am a big, big fan of this kind of racing. GP's can be held anywhere by anyone.

And dont think there isnt leeching or following - there are tactics in any and all kinds of racing - watch the NZ GP with Pete Harveys tactics for example , but it is close-in racing and quite exciting. Laps are particularly 'racy' as the lead can change from lap to lap.

In my experience GP's are fantastic fun and make for great stories round the camp fire in the evening.

Peter Deane (2T)



On Sunday, 11 November 2012 21:28:22 UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.



IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.



The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.



Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.



I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.



It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.



I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.



It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.



Sean