Passengers manipulating controls

Is the "no touching of controls" when it comes to insurance common in the power community? If that was part of the policy in my previous glider club, I didn't know it. It certainly wasn't in the club rules. I routinely let passengers try a couple of turns at altitude if they wanted to. Usually, they didn't but sometimes (especially young teens) wanted to give it a try. As far as I can tell, this is not prohibited by by regulations. Am I missing something here or is this just the insurance people being overly cautious? It seems a bit ridiculous.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:21:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Is the "no touching of controls" when it comes to insurance common in the power community? If that was part of the policy in my previous glider club, I didn't know it. It certainly wasn't in the club rules. I routinely let passengers try a couple of turns at altitude if they wanted to. Usually, they didn't but sometimes (especially young teens) wanted to give it a try. As far as I can tell, this is not prohibited by by regulations. Am I missing something here or is this just the insurance people being overly cautious? It seems a bit ridiculous.

Don't ask- don't tell.
The number one way to sell soaring is to show people that they can do it too.
UH

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:18:59 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:21:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Is the "no touching of controls" when it comes to insurance common in the power community? If that was part of the policy in my previous glider club, I didn't know it. It certainly wasn't in the club rules. I routinely let passengers try a couple of turns at altitude if they wanted to. Usually, they didn't but sometimes (especially young teens) wanted to give it a try. As far as I can tell, this is not prohibited by by regulations. Am I missing something here or is this just the insurance people being overly cautious? It seems a bit ridiculous.



Don't ask- don't tell.

The number one way to sell soaring is to show people that they can do it too.

UH

That may be. However, online news features include lifestyle reporters writing about BS Gliding Club and flying with Joe Instructor and how he let her take the controls. Seen several times.

FW

If the insurance company can't link passengers touching of controls, in general, to accidents why forbid it? I wonder how many GA accidents have been linked to a non-pilot passenger handling the controls. There are probably some but I'd guess that they would involve panicked passengers. If its such a big deal why not require that there be no controls accessible to the passenger? I could understand no touching during critical phases of flight (approach, landing take-off, below x altitude, etc) but to completely forbid it is overkill.

I just fail to see the logic of "Well, before you stall/spun on final you let the passenger make a few turns an hour prior. Therefore, your policy is cancelled" or worse, deny coverage on that particular accident.

I know 'don't ask, don't tell' is the simplest way around it but I'd hate to say to someone "I'll let you try but you can't tell anybody when we get back on the ground".

Not GA, but I recall an Air Force accident report where shards of the stick
grip in the palm of the back seat passenger's hand indicated that he was on
the stick at impact. I think it was an academy cadet in a T-33 and the
instructor in the front had a heart attack.


wrote in message
...
If the insurance company can't link passengers touching of controls, in
general, to accidents why forbid it? I wonder how many GA accidents have
been linked to a non-pilot passenger handling the controls. There are
probably some but I'd guess that they would involve panicked passengers. If
its such a big deal why not require that there be no controls accessible to
the passenger? I could understand no touching during critical phases of
flight (approach, landing take-off, below x altitude, etc) but to completely
forbid it is overkill.

I just fail to see the logic of "Well, before you stall/spun on final you
let the passenger make a few turns an hour prior. Therefore, your policy is
cancelled" or worse, deny coverage on that particular accident.

I know 'don't ask, don't tell' is the simplest way around it but I'd hate to
say to someone "I'll let you try but you can't tell anybody when we get back
on the ground".

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:04:59 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not GA, but I recall an Air Force accident report where shards of the stick

grip in the palm of the back seat passenger's hand indicated that he was on

the stick at impact. I think it was an academy cadet in a T-33 and the

instructor in the front had a heart attack.





wrote in message

...

If the insurance company can't link passengers touching of controls, in

general, to accidents why forbid it? I wonder how many GA accidents have

been linked to a non-pilot passenger handling the controls. There are

probably some but I'd guess that they would involve panicked passengers. If

its such a big deal why not require that there be no controls accessible to

the passenger? I could understand no touching during critical phases of

flight (approach, landing take-off, below x altitude, etc) but to completely

forbid it is overkill.



I just fail to see the logic of "Well, before you stall/spun on final you

let the passenger make a few turns an hour prior. Therefore, your policy is

cancelled" or worse, deny coverage on that particular accident.



I know 'don't ask, don't tell' is the simplest way around it but I'd hate to

say to someone "I'll let you try but you can't tell anybody when we get back

on the ground".

I always found this one interesting.
http://www.show-the-house.com/id36.html

Frank Whiteley

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 09:04:59 -0600, "Dan Marotta"
wrote:

Not GA, but I recall an Air Force accident report where shards of the stick
grip in the palm of the back seat passenger's hand indicated that he was on
the stick at impact. I think it was an academy cadet in a T-33 and the
instructor in the front had a heart attack.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

rj

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:03:51 AM UTC-6, wrote:
If the insurance company can't link passengers touching of controls, in general, to accidents why forbid it? I wonder how many GA accidents have been linked to a non-pilot passenger handling the controls. There are probably some but I'd guess that they would involve panicked passengers. If its such a big deal why not require that there be no controls accessible to the passenger? I could understand no touching during critical phases of flight (approach, landing take-off, below x altitude, etc) but to completely forbid it is overkill.



I just fail to see the logic of "Well, before you stall/spun on final you let the passenger make a few turns an hour prior. Therefore, your policy is cancelled" or worse, deny coverage on that particular accident.



I know 'don't ask, don't tell' is the simplest way around it but I'd hate to say to someone "I'll let you try but you can't tell anybody when we get back on the ground".

That's to the point. Not to get into cosmic scenarios, the matter boils down to what the courts will decide. That is, the expectation of service. If someone is paying for a service, the courts will hold to commercial standards in the event of an incident. You cannot have any expectation that the statements for testimony of an injured party will support your position.

The ten-hour annual pilot may not be any more likely to end up in the rocks and sagebrush as anyone else, but clearly is not your average XC pilot. Hard landing, PIO, runway excursion, or PTT, why risk it? The projected audience of the OP are likely pilots, some current, some not, but they will really want to test their stick and rudder skills.

I think there are better options for generating long-term results than what's being considered. Embrace the prospective new member, make than an introductory club/chapter member for three months (the SSA part is free), and get them 3-4 lessons in the book and at least a one hour soaring trip on O2.

My $.02,

Frank Whiteley

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:21:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Is the "no touching of controls" when it comes to insurance common in the power community? If that was part of the policy in my previous glider club, I didn't know it. It certainly wasn't in the club rules. I routinely let passengers try a couple of turns at altitude if they wanted to. Usually, they didn't but sometimes (especially young teens) wanted to give it a try. As far as I can tell, this is not prohibited by by regulations. Am I missing something here or is this just the insurance people being overly cautious? It seems a bit ridiculous.

If you have Costello Insurance, they will tell you that passengers do not touch the controls. Any accident with a passenger that touched the controls may void your insurance whether or not it was caused by the passenger. Beware!

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 12:26:10 PM UTC-4, wrote:

If you have Costello Insurance, they will tell you that passengers do not touch the controls. Any accident with a passenger that touched the controls may void your insurance whether or not it was caused by the passenger. Beware!

I'm not questioning your statement but the value of that insurance policy is questionable. Someone I know was giving a ride and the adult rider pulled the release at 100 ft on a short runway surrounded by trees. His wife said, 'he has a problem with impulse control'.

Erratic passengers is one of the hazards that the insurance should cover.