When the ASI Reads Below Zero

In gliders, we train no ASI and no altimeter landings.. fly by "attitude and
feel".. what looks right and feels right . Our students experience a no
ASI/ALT approach and landing at least once before solo. They are taught, in
the traffic pattern to be looking outside, only inside for ASI checks,
attitude controls Airspeed, if you know the attitude, and the controls are
not mushy, the airspeed is ok.

Also, in B-52s we trained attitude and power settings, a table with known
power setting and known attitude would yield an appx airspeed in the landing
configuration, a needed item if the radar dome was damaged rendering airflow
around the pitot and AOA unusable for accurate information

I agree that flying well in powered aircraft is "fly by the numbers", but
many cannot. Do you know what power setting and pitch attitude will yield
what airspeed on approach? During instrument approaches, a set MP setting in
level flight will yield the desired airspeed, a reduction to a set MP
pressure at the FAF will yield the desired fpm rate of descent. Pitch
controls airspeed, power (or lack there of) controls rate of descent.

Set the power, set the pitch, the airspeed will be where you want it.

You were very conservative and had a good plan, nice that you had 11000ft of
runway to execute it. But can you do it on a 3500ft runway? Why not.

BT

"An Metet" wrote in message
ster...
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I was flying from Green Bay, Wisconsin to the Upper Peninsula of
Michigan. Very shortly after takeoff I noticed that my air speed
indicator said over 200 mph. That's just not bad in a Cessna 150!

Further investigation showed that my air speed indicator was actually
reading NEGATIVE!! It had wrapped around below zero.

My plane has a small cover over the pitot tube that should lift off the
pitot tube hole at flying speed. Normally as I begin my takeoff role the
cover 'pop's off at about 40 mph. On this takeoff roll the thing stayed
stuck, and I had an inoperative ASI.

I continued my climb, making sure to keep my climb shallow.

Once I had some altitude I tried doing shallow dives to increase the
airspeed and maybe 'pop' off the cover. No joy. I considered more
agressive dives, but decided that was a dumb idea.

I decided to continue to my destination. My destination is a quiet
airport with 11,000 foot runways, and that seemed a better place for my
first no-ASI landing than the rather busy Green Bay airport.

Many people would probably just land by feel, but I'm a numbers guy and
now I didn't have any numbers.

My plan was to come in with just below cruise power, keeping more than
90 mph on the GPS. Once over the runway I would cut the throttle and
wait for speed to fall. When the plane felt like landing I'd let it
touch down, being careful not to let the wheels hit the pavement at
90mph. With 11,0000 feet to use this should all be possible. I would
avoid the use of flaps since I was not sure when the plane would be in
the white arc, and no-flaps landings are easy in a Cessna 150.

To finish the story, the dang cover popped off after two hours of flying
and five minutes before landing. I never got to try my plan.


So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?

An Metet wrote

So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?

It is a shame that your flight instructor did not do a
better job of instructing. All of my students fly one
complete lesson in the landing pattern with NO instruments
other than the tachometer. If you have not learned the
pitch and power relationship for your airplane in the climb,
cruise, and approach realms of flight, you have not been
trained properly as a pilot.

Downwind.....1900-2100 RPM, Visual level flight attitude,
who cares what the airspeed is?

Abeam Touchdown....1500 RPM, first flap setting, pitch down
to the well-known visual approach attitude,
who cares what the airspeed is?

Base Leg.....1500 RPM, second flap setting, maintain the
same visual approach pitch attitude,
who cares what the airspeed is?

Final Leg....1500 RPM until short final, final flap setting,
then throttle to idle for touchdown.

You need to get away from "Flight Sim" and do some "real"
flying.

BTW, my first real "no ASI" landing came in a Boeing 707, and
except for the power settings, it worked just as described
above.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

Recently, Bob Moore posted:

An Metet wrote

So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?

It is a shame that your flight instructor did not do a
better job of instructing. All of my students fly one
complete lesson in the landing pattern with NO instruments
other than the tachometer. If you have not learned the
pitch and power relationship for your airplane in the climb,
cruise, and approach realms of flight, you have not been
trained properly as a pilot.

I agree, and add that my instructor was a little more aggressive. I don't
think I saw the instrument panel all that often during my training (except
for the tach)! Needless to say, that training was very useful when I
experienced a vacuum pump failure early-on. Being able to fly by looking
out the window is a Good Thing to know.

Neil

In article ,
Bob Moore wrote:
It is a shame that your flight instructor did not do a
better job of instructing. All of my students fly one
complete lesson in the landing pattern with NO instruments

My instructor did that. It was pretty easy to take away all the
instruments -- it was at night!

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"An Metet" wrote in message
--------------------------------------------------------

I was flying from Green Bay, Wisconsin to the Upper Peninsula of
Michigan. Very shortly after takeoff I noticed that my air speed
indicator said over 200 mph. That's just not bad in a Cessna 150!

Go somewhere with a longer runway to give you some leeway (your
tendency towards safety is going to mean you'll like to come in faster
which means you'll float a long way).

In a 150 it's not an event. You still have the stall party horn and even
without that, there are lots of cues well before the stall...(small cessnoids
have a real pronounced wind noise change).

I've had a couple of pitot/static failures over the years. One was when Margy
was flying and we lost the pitot (bug). We went over to an 8000 foot runway
I just told her if she hears the horn to nose it over immediately. Non-event.
Got the tube blown out and proceed on our way. Later that night at Friar
Tucks we were relating the story to a guy at the bar, and he said he has an
alternate pitot inside the cockpit. Margy kicked me as she could tell that I
was about to inquire how fast the air was moving inside his cockpit.

Twice I've had the static system plug up. Both times VFR. In one case
we had an alternate static, but just for jollies we shut it on approach and taxied
up to the maintenance shop with the ASI still reading 50 MPH. In the other
with my Navion, the only real issue I had is deciding when to drop the gear
(the gear speed on the Navion is low: 87 knots). I used the GPS groundspeed
coupled with the AWOS winds on downwind to verify I was OK. Once the gear
is down in the Navion, it's hard to in normal maneuvering to exceed the extension
speed.

On my 3rd solo outing as a student I had a complete pitot-static failure
after takeoff. ASI did come alive to 35-40 knots, which is why I didn't
abort, but then stayed there and then sagged after takeoff. I flew my
first pattern with no ASI, airspeed, or VSI, and landed on my first try
on the 3100' runway (22 at MWC). It wasn't that bad, actually, as I
knew I could control my airspeed well by the tach and pitch attitude, if
not by feel, yet still it was all the excitement I needed for a little
while.

If I'd had 11K of runway I would have elected to do what you did.

An Metet wrote:

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--------------------------------------------------------

I was flying from Green Bay, Wisconsin to the Upper Peninsula of
Michigan. Very shortly after takeoff I noticed that my air speed
indicator said over 200 mph. That's just not bad in a Cessna 150!

Further investigation showed that my air speed indicator was actually
reading NEGATIVE!! It had wrapped around below zero.

My plane has a small cover over the pitot tube that should lift off the
pitot tube hole at flying speed. Normally as I begin my takeoff role the
cover 'pop's off at about 40 mph. On this takeoff roll the thing stayed
stuck, and I had an inoperative ASI.

I continued my climb, making sure to keep my climb shallow.

Once I had some altitude I tried doing shallow dives to increase the
airspeed and maybe 'pop' off the cover. No joy. I considered more
agressive dives, but decided that was a dumb idea.

I decided to continue to my destination. My destination is a quiet
airport with 11,000 foot runways, and that seemed a better place for my
first no-ASI landing than the rather busy Green Bay airport.

Many people would probably just land by feel, but I'm a numbers guy and
now I didn't have any numbers.

My plan was to come in with just below cruise power, keeping more than
90 mph on the GPS. Once over the runway I would cut the throttle and
wait for speed to fall. When the plane felt like landing I'd let it
touch down, being careful not to let the wheels hit the pavement at
90mph. With 11,0000 feet to use this should all be possible. I would
avoid the use of flaps since I was not sure when the plane would be in
the white arc, and no-flaps landings are easy in a Cessna 150.

To finish the story, the dang cover popped off after two hours of flying
and five minutes before landing. I never got to try my plan.


So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
ASI did come alive to 35-40 knots, which is
why I didn't abort, but then stayed there and
then sagged after takeoff.

Similar with me, shortly after first airplane solo. ASI came alive slower than
usual and I noticed that (SHOULD have aborted then), I *knew* I was at rotation
before the ASI got there, took off and watched ... it went to 60 kts, then
dropped back to 40 and never moved again. Everything else was operating as
usual. Told the controller I was going to stay in the pattern for a full-stop
landing (had requested closed traffic) as I had an inop ASI. He asked me if I
was going to need any assistance on the runway ... I hope not! And yes, being a
glider pilot first helped as I was taught not to chase the airspeed but rather
to fly the pitch. The landing was no different than any other. I'd like to say
it didn't rattle me, but I'd be lying.

My instructor wouln't let a student solo which couldn't fly a aircraft
without instruments. He covers the instruments, calls out a target
airspeed and the student has to pitch the plane to that speed, give or
take 10 knots. The exercise includes a stall training, too, to know at
which pitch the plane stalls and the feeling of the controls getting mushy.

The training came handy the day I experienced my first ASI failure. As
my destination had only a 1000 ft runway, I decided not to try and land
there without ASI but rather to return. The landing at my home field was
a non-event, as our runway has plenty room for error with its 2000 ft.

Of course, we're not talking jets here.

Stefan

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:54:46 -0400, An Metet
wrote:

NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------

I was flying from Green Bay, Wisconsin to the Upper Peninsula of
Michigan. Very shortly after takeoff I noticed that my air speed
indicator said over 200 mph. That's just not bad in a Cessna 150!

Further investigation showed that my air speed indicator was actually
reading NEGATIVE!! It had wrapped around below zero.

My plane has a small cover over the pitot tube that should lift off the
pitot tube hole at flying speed. Normally as I begin my takeoff role the
cover 'pop's off at about 40 mph. On this takeoff roll the thing stayed
stuck, and I had an inoperative ASI.

I continued my climb, making sure to keep my climb shallow.

Once I had some altitude I tried doing shallow dives to increase the
airspeed and maybe 'pop' off the cover. No joy. I considered more
agressive dives, but decided that was a dumb idea.

I decided to continue to my destination. My destination is a quiet
airport with 11,000 foot runways, and that seemed a better place for my
first no-ASI landing than the rather busy Green Bay airport.

Many people would probably just land by feel, but I'm a numbers guy and
now I didn't have any numbers.

My plan was to come in with just below cruise power, keeping more than
90 mph on the GPS. Once over the runway I would cut the throttle and
wait for speed to fall. When the plane felt like landing I'd let it
touch down, being careful not to let the wheels hit the pavement at
90mph. With 11,0000 feet to use this should all be possible. I would
avoid the use of flaps since I was not sure when the plane would be in
the white arc, and no-flaps landings are easy in a Cessna 150.

To finish the story, the dang cover popped off after two hours of flying
and five minutes before landing. I never got to try my plan.


So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?

Pitch and power will get you most of the way there, especially when
you have a long runway, and a draggy plane. For example, I know that
1900rpm, level, and 2 notch of flaps ~= 90mph in my plane. Trim for
this, and the plane will try to keep 90mph on the approach.

You can also fly the final approach course inbound & outbound, note
the groundspeeds, average them to get the winds, and then use this to
derive airspeed. Gotta be careful with this approach as winds aloft
are usually different than the winds at the surface.

I think your procedure was fine. Find a long runway, and be generous
with the speed.

As a sidenote, a check of the airspeed indicator should really be part
of your takeoff roll. As well, if it is a windy day, you can often
see if the ASI is working just by pointing the plane into the wind.

Your query begs the question: Don't you look at the ASI on your takeoff roll?
I guess not. If you can take off without regard to the ASI, then I say you
should have no problem landing without it.

You certainly should be able to land without an ASI, because they can fail in
flight. However, please look at your ASI on takeoff. If it isn't reading
"right", abort the take off. Have a look at your oil pressure and tach on
take off, too. Please.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft Musketeer Super III

An Metet wrote:

NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------

I was flying from Green Bay, Wisconsin to the Upper Peninsula of
Michigan. Very shortly after takeoff I noticed that my air speed
indicator said over 200 mph. That's just not bad in a Cessna 150!

Further investigation showed that my air speed indicator was actually
reading NEGATIVE!! It had wrapped around below zero.

My plane has a small cover over the pitot tube that should lift off the
pitot tube hole at flying speed. Normally as I begin my takeoff role the
cover 'pop's off at about 40 mph. On this takeoff roll the thing stayed
stuck, and I had an inoperative ASI.

I continued my climb, making sure to keep my climb shallow.

Once I had some altitude I tried doing shallow dives to increase the
airspeed and maybe 'pop' off the cover. No joy. I considered more
agressive dives, but decided that was a dumb idea.

I decided to continue to my destination. My destination is a quiet
airport with 11,000 foot runways, and that seemed a better place for my
first no-ASI landing than the rather busy Green Bay airport.

Many people would probably just land by feel, but I'm a numbers guy and
now I didn't have any numbers.

My plan was to come in with just below cruise power, keeping more than
90 mph on the GPS. Once over the runway I would cut the throttle and
wait for speed to fall. When the plane felt like landing I'd let it
touch down, being careful not to let the wheels hit the pavement at
90mph. With 11,0000 feet to use this should all be possible. I would
avoid the use of flaps since I was not sure when the plane would be in
the white arc, and no-flaps landings are easy in a Cessna 150.

To finish the story, the dang cover popped off after two hours of flying
and five minutes before landing. I never got to try my plan.

So, how would you deal with your first no-ASI landing?