PA-23 Aztec

I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!

Been there, done that. Bought a 1966 C model last month. email me with any
questions and I can tell you everything we've learned (so far)
Jim



"onsitewelding" wrote in message
news:07l1d.403688$M95.383968@pd7tw1no...
I would like to get my multi rating and then buy a light twin. I have done
some research (very little actualy) but it seems from what I have read and
been told that the piper aztec is a fairly easy twin to learn to fly, not
too much of a maintenance hog and is a good solid aircraft. Not to mention
that some of the older ones are not that expensive to buy.

I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would
I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I kinda have this thing about twin engine planes although I also realize 2
engines = double the cost.

Thanks for your input!




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"Jim Burns" writes:

Been there, done that. Bought a 1966 C model last month. email me with any
questions and I can tell you everything we've learned (so far)

Hey! Don't hide that info!

I'll be happy to share about my 1966 C model too. There's been lots of
info posted here (and in rec.aviation.owning) already but fire away with
new questions.

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
Hey! Don't hide that info!

Ok, my partners and I were looking or a 6 place that would haul
significantly more than the 182RG we'd been leasing. 2 of us had recently
gotten our multi rating and had a friend that is a CFII/AI owned an Aztec.
Through him we'd learn how to research the different models and years and
what to really look for. We flew with him several times and he really
showed us how amazing this airplane is. Remember, it's got the same airfoil
as a SuperCub, now strap on two 250hp engines and you can make it do some
remarkable things.

Although it's a twin and has more complex systems than complex/hi
performance singles, the systems are "relatively" simple for a twin. We
narrowed our search down to a 66 C model or newer. The C model came
standard with fuel injected engines and the 66 was the first year with the
larger rear baggage door/compartment. The 66 also has center stack radios
but didn't come with a standard T instrument configuration. So far this
hasn't been a problem.

Things to look for:
Fuel bladder condition and age
If the plane has sat for awhile, make sure the bladders have been full,
or pickled. Check them for leaks when they are completely full.

AD's and SB's
The latest expensive AD is the flap torque tube AD, requiring an
inspection every 500 hours or replacement. Our plane had the tube replaced,
now the AD is not applicable.

Depending on the props and hubs, they can be effected by some nasty
Harzell prop AD's. Ours was not effected.

Depending on when the engines were rebuilt, they may or may not be
effected by the Lycoming crankshaft retaining bolt AD. Ours were not.

There is an AD on the heater to have it pressure tested every 100 hours
of operation, so a separate hobbs meter on the heater will pay for itself.

Owner assisted maintenance is a must if you want to keep the bills down.
The Aztec is easy to work on and if you keep up with it, nothing will get to
big. We've replaced a few drain and overflow hoses, the cabin door lock,
and are currently installing new fuel cover gaskets and oil cooler braces.

The flaps and gear are hydraulic and operated through a mutual "power
pac". The pack is full of poppet valves and O-rings that need to be fresh.
If your power pac hasn't been overhauled recently, insist on it or a
replacement before purchasing. Figure $2000.

The hydraulic pump is an engine driven pump on the left engine, so if
you loose your left (critical) engine, you'll be pumping the flaps and gear
up and down by hand. A nice add-on would be an electric hydraulic pump.

Avoid the old Altimatic II autopilots, they are no longer serviceable.
We looked at one plane that had one and had to right off the plane simply
because it had a non working Altimatic II. Autopilots Central informed us
that it wasn't worth even looking at and we couldn't afford to put a new
S-Tec into that particular plane for what the owner was asking. The 66 that
we bought actually has an S-Tec 60-2 in it. It would have cost us over
$11,000 to replace the Altimatic II in the other plane.

Look for planes that were corporate owned or part 135 operated. They
typically have better maintenance, but beware, there are still things to
watch out for. Remember you can always fix things by throwing money at
them, but money will never make your airplane any newer. Shop smart. There
were over 10,000 Aztecs made over the years. The E model is most numerous,
followed by the C, then the F. We couldn't afford anything newer than a C.
The A's and B's are airplanes of a different era. When you get into a C,
the systems and especially the electrical system are greatly improved and
modernized including alternators rather than generators. There are very few
D's and the differences from a C are mostly cosmetic. The E get's you a
longer pointed nose but not much more front baggage. Due to the pointed
nose the E and F also was forced to come with an elevator down spring
(bungee) that gives more pitch stability. We installed one in our C and it
makes holding altitude and trimming much easier. No more porpoiseing. This
Piper kit cost us $600 installed.

All Aztecs are basically overgrown Apaches. Tube fuselage, which needs
to be inspected thoroughly during a pre-purchase. There are all kinds of
mods and STC's available. You can take a C model and turn it into a
look-alike F model if you want. You can get speed kits, casket doors,
extended noses, wing tips and tip tanks, you name it.

As far as expenses, we've been flying ours at around 165mph at reduced
power settings and have found the fuel burn to be around 22 gallons per
hour, total. Push everything to the wall, lean it out, and 25-28 gallons is
typical at about 200mph.

Most of our partners and our family members are small people so filling
the seats, the tanks and the baggage isn't a problem, so we typically load
and go.

We're looking at replacing the bench seat in the rear with two captains
chairs, then extending the rear baggage compartment into the tail section.
This will make a cavernous rear baggage area with the rear seats removed.

Take off and landing performance is awesome with a little practice.
Accelerate stop distances are around 2200 feet and if you don't have any
obstacles, you can get in and out of 1/2 that length if you need to. Climb
rates around 1400 fpm will get you up through the haze or overcast in no
time with plenty of extra power.

We found a plane that was owned by a man who was meticulous about
replacing worn items with new parts. So what we found was that during the
previous 3 annuals, over $25,000 had been spent. It was spent on items that
we won't have to replace in the near future, infact, he even pulled the gyro
instruments before our purchase and had them rebuilt, "just to be sure"
nothing was wrong.

There are a lot of Aztecs for sale. You'll find a good one, just be
patient and wait for one that you won't have to dump your life savings into.
We compared 3 Aztecs all in the $85,000 to $90,000 range and the one we
bought stood out like a rose. Look for one that has all the electronics and
radios that you want. Because there are so many, there are a lot of Aztecs
that have been upgraded.

Jim




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"Jim Burns" writes:

As far as expenses, we've been flying ours at around 165mph at reduced
power settings and have found the fuel burn to be around 22 gallons per
hour, total. Push everything to the wall, lean it out, and 25-28 gallons is
typical at about 200mph.

Wow! I wish I got that. I'm more like 32 GPH then. (I'm still working on
the art of leaning a turbo'd plane.)

Most of our partners and our family members are small people so filling
the seats, the tanks and the baggage isn't a problem, so we typically load
and go.

Yeah, it's a luxury not to be understated.

We're looking at replacing the bench seat in the rear with two captains
chairs, then extending the rear baggage compartment into the tail section.
This will make a cavernous rear baggage area with the rear seats removed.

I want to hear more about this. I have been interested in this for years
and a need for it appeared again recently. I'd especially like to be able
to replace the bench seat with a single seat so that I can seat five and
still have access to the rear baggage.

Thanks for the info!

--kyler

Wow! I wish I got that. I'm more like 32 GPH then. (I'm still working
on
the art of leaning a turbo'd plane.)

Ours isn't turboed.
..

I want to hear more about this. I have been interested in this for years
and a need for it appeared again recently. I'd especially like to be able
to replace the bench seat with a single seat so that I can seat five and
still have access to the rear baggage.

I think the middle seats are interchangeable for the rear bench, the
tracks go all the way to the back. All you need is an extra middle seat.

Our AI friend did this to his and got a field approval. If you remove
the rear bulkhead from the rear baggage compartment, you can see how much
room is in the tail. My friend fabricated the sides, bottom, end and top
then upholstered them and mounted them to the interior support braces of the
tail. It's a bit "funnel" shaped and doesn't add to the 150 lbs max, but
it's great for long or light stuff. A new arm for this part of the baggage
compartment was also computed and posted. One concern if you live where
it's cold is how to seal off the rear baggage when the weather get's cold.
I'm thinking of an upholsterd and insulated panel that will velcro or snap
into place behind the rear seats. Or maybe some kind of an insulated roll
up curtain that you could roll up and fasten to the head liner or drop down
and snap at the bottom like the rear bench seat back does. Something to
keep the cold air in the back and the warm air in the front but removeable.

There is also a bulk head in the nose that the center can be cut out of.
Great for stuffing hats, gloves, and light stuff. Also, if you have any
radios mounted in the nose, you may be able to move them to one side to add
more useable space like a hat rack.

Jim



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I know I'm responding to my own post, but a few more things about Aztecs
have popped into my head.

The cowlings are extremely tight and hold a lot of heat inside. Be sure to
open the cowl flaps as part of your pre landing check list and keep them
full open during take offs and any ground operations. You may consider
removeing the heat shroud from the front of the exhaust system. This
directs heat into the alternate air system and seems to be a left over from
the non fuel injected engines as carb heat air source. It traps a lot of
heat up front near the inside of the fiberglass nose bowl. Those nose bowls
are expensive, be sure to inspect the interior of the lower section for
burned and cracked fiberglass. You may contemplate lining the bottom of the
bowl with heat reflective aluminum tape or paint. You may also consider
installing the cowling louvers that came standard on turbo charged models.
See what your AI will let you get away with.

As a result of the tight cowling and the heat, make sure everything rubber
inside the cowling has been inspected and replaced if necessary.... hoses,
gaskets, air baffles, seals, etc. There is also an STC to have additional
ram air routed to the vacuum pump to allow it to run cooler, a good idea if
you're looking at an Aztec with de-ice boots.

If the exhaust system needs replacement, talk to your shop about shortening
it or raising it up away from the cowling. The further away from the
cowling those hot pipes are, the better.

There are a lot of Aztecs without shoulder harnesses. If you find one that
has them, consider them worth a couple hundred bucks each. Direct from
Piper they are big bucks and even from junk yards, they ain't cheap. This
is a great safety feature and would most likely save a few lives. Smashing
your face into the instrument panel may be bad enough, but to have one or
two rear seat passengers pile onto your back besides would most likely ruin
your day.

The landing gear is built like it belongs on a tank. Fairly simple and very
rugged. Grass strips are no problem, just pay attention to the prop
clearance, it's not a lot. Check for any binding or pinching, the gear
should work freely. Loose is better than too tight.

Most older Aztecs only have brakes on the pilots side, co-pilot brakes were
optional or an add on.

You may find one that doesn't have a landing light in the tip of the nose.
There was a differant nose for Aztecs that had radar, thus the radome. Most
have a landing light in the nose, and a taxi light mounted to the nose gear
that makes it steerable. Turn off the taxi light before take off.

With two baggage compartments, one in the nose, one in the tail, you must
give consideration to how you load the airplane. Generally speaking, you
load the front 4 passengers and the rear baggage compartment first, to move
the CG aft, then load the nose baggage compartment to move the CG forward
slightly, then the rear seat passengers last. The POH has specific
instructions. The C model had a gross weight increase from 4800 to 5200
lbs, but there is a zero fuel weight of 4500 lbs.

Some Aztecs, includeing ours, have thermo-pain windows. Yes I spelled that
pain. They rub together and get crazed and scratched. If all other things
are equal, avoid the thermo-pains and go with regular or 1/4" glass. One
piece windshields are available so you can get rid of the center post, move
the outside air temp prob to the side, and train the compass to hang from
the head liner, all for better visability.

Jim








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I thank you very much Jim for your very valuable info. I have much to digest
and will be looking for quite a while. I'm not in a hurry to buy just yet
but, now atleast I have some great info to make a informed purchase.

Again I thank you very much for your posts and maybe someday I'll meet you
at a flyin with my Aztec.

Gary


"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
I know I'm responding to my own post, but a few more things about Aztecs
have popped into my head.

The cowlings are extremely tight and hold a lot of heat inside. Be sure
to
open the cowl flaps as part of your pre landing check list and keep them
full open during take offs and any ground operations. You may consider
removeing the heat shroud from the front of the exhaust system. This
directs heat into the alternate air system and seems to be a left over
from
the non fuel injected engines as carb heat air source. It traps a lot of
heat up front near the inside of the fiberglass nose bowl. Those nose
bowls
are expensive, be sure to inspect the interior of the lower section for
burned and cracked fiberglass. You may contemplate lining the bottom of
the
bowl with heat reflective aluminum tape or paint. You may also consider
installing the cowling louvers that came standard on turbo charged models.
See what your AI will let you get away with.

As a result of the tight cowling and the heat, make sure everything rubber
inside the cowling has been inspected and replaced if necessary.... hoses,
gaskets, air baffles, seals, etc. There is also an STC to have additional
ram air routed to the vacuum pump to allow it to run cooler, a good idea
if
you're looking at an Aztec with de-ice boots.

If the exhaust system needs replacement, talk to your shop about
shortening
it or raising it up away from the cowling. The further away from the
cowling those hot pipes are, the better.

There are a lot of Aztecs without shoulder harnesses. If you find one
that
has them, consider them worth a couple hundred bucks each. Direct from
Piper they are big bucks and even from junk yards, they ain't cheap. This
is a great safety feature and would most likely save a few lives.
Smashing
your face into the instrument panel may be bad enough, but to have one or
two rear seat passengers pile onto your back besides would most likely
ruin
your day.

The landing gear is built like it belongs on a tank. Fairly simple and
very
rugged. Grass strips are no problem, just pay attention to the prop
clearance, it's not a lot. Check for any binding or pinching, the gear
should work freely. Loose is better than too tight.

Most older Aztecs only have brakes on the pilots side, co-pilot brakes
were
optional or an add on.

You may find one that doesn't have a landing light in the tip of the nose.
There was a differant nose for Aztecs that had radar, thus the radome.
Most
have a landing light in the nose, and a taxi light mounted to the nose
gear
that makes it steerable. Turn off the taxi light before take off.

With two baggage compartments, one in the nose, one in the tail, you must
give consideration to how you load the airplane. Generally speaking, you
load the front 4 passengers and the rear baggage compartment first, to
move
the CG aft, then load the nose baggage compartment to move the CG forward
slightly, then the rear seat passengers last. The POH has specific
instructions. The C model had a gross weight increase from 4800 to 5200
lbs, but there is a zero fuel weight of 4500 lbs.

Some Aztecs, includeing ours, have thermo-pain windows. Yes I spelled
that
pain. They rub together and get crazed and scratched. If all other
things
are equal, avoid the thermo-pains and go with regular or 1/4" glass. One
piece windshields are available so you can get rid of the center post,
move
the outside air temp prob to the side, and train the compass to hang from
the head liner, all for better visability.

Jim








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"Jim Burns" writes:

There are a lot of Aztecs without shoulder harnesses. If you find one that
has them, consider them worth a couple hundred bucks each. Direct from
Piper they are big bucks and even from junk yards, they ain't cheap.

Ah! Yet another topic of interest to me. I don't have harnesses and I want
them. Are retractables available as add-ons? I've looked a few times but
have not found them.

The landing gear is built like it belongs on a tank. Fairly simple and very
rugged.

Mine was installed incorrectly (and passed a couple mechanics' inspections
over the years) and still handled my abusive landings with grace.

Turn off the taxi light before take off.

Do we agree that the taxi light *should* extinguish itself when it's
retracted?

Some Aztecs, includeing ours, have thermo-pain windows. Yes I spelled that
pain. They rub together and get crazed and scratched. If all other things
are equal, avoid the thermo-pains and go with regular or 1/4" glass.

I've gone with .25" glass. I like it.

One
piece windshields are available so you can get rid of the center post, move
the outside air temp prob to the side, and train the compass to hang from
the head liner, all for better visability.

Or get an electronic temp. probe (as part of an engine monitor) and put a
card compass on the glareshield.

--kyler

"onsitewelding" wrote in message
I would use it for personal use only, kinda like a family air wagon so I
don't want to be spending oodles of money just to use it. Does anyone have
any suggestions as to the cost of using a aircraft such as this? Or would
I
be better off looking at a good 6 place single?

I've owned Aztecs. They are wonderful for personal and commercial use. I ran
mine at 24 gallons/hour for 150 KIAS. Maintenance costs weren't excessive.

When doing a pre-buy, have your inspector give attention to the steel tubing
in the airframe. I've seen a few that were badly rusted below the
floorboards. Repairing the tubing is expensive. Fortunately it isn't common.
The aluminum part of the airframe was zinc-chromated by the factory.

D.