When has it Been too Long before you solo

As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

On 15 Nov 2004 21:18:12 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have
any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

Make sure the plane is in perfect trim, and then relax.

Most entry level planes will stay straight and level for 10+ seconds
when trimmed correctly. Because of this, they do not require constant
control corrections. The mistake most new IFR pilots make is to
overcontrol the plane.

-Nathan

(JustMe) wrote

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

The school is all screwed-up. Private Pilots don't begin by flying
by instruments. I require my students to fly entire sessions both
in and out of the pattern with the instrument panel completely covered.
The attitude indicator is a neat gadget, but is certainly not required
for VFR flying in the traffic pattern. One judges aircraft attitude
by looking at the nose of the aircraft. Altitude, Airspeed, and RPM
are all that you should be using in the traffic pattern, if even that.

From FAR 61.87

(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight,
a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and
model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged
by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures
required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or
similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training
for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive
and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication
of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine
malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.

(JustMe) wrote in message . com...
Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?


After 47.7 hours, you can reasonably ask when to expect taking the
plane out in the pattern by yourself. A solo is merely a take-off and
a landing and the shirt off your back

I almost wet my pants when my FI said to taxi to the ramp, drop him
off and take it for one spin around the pattern :P


HankC

(JustMe) wrote in message . com...
Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?


After 47.7 hours, you can reasonably ask when to expect taking the
plane out in the pattern by yourself. A solo is merely a take-off and
a landing and the shirt off your back

I almost wet my pants when my FI said to taxi to the ramp, drop him
off and take it for one spin around the pattern :P


HankC

We've recently had a young lady come to us after failing to solo after 30
hours - we had her soloing in an additional 1.5.

Sometimes some instructors are better suited to students with particular
types of issues.

The other problem you'll be having right about now is starting to psych
yourself out - hang in there - but make a change - after 47 hours you're
probably not going to get there unless you find out what the true obstacle
is and make a change to overcome it.

I'd try a few other (experienced) instructors to see if they can progress
you.

Cheers,

CC


"Bob Moore" wrote in message
21...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

"JustMe" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

I agree with Bob, at least in fact if not tone. Just from your message, it
sure sounds like the standards your instructor is expecting from you before
solo are just too high. A solo student needs to be able to safely operate
the airplane in the expected environment. A solo student does NOT need to
be good enough to pass the checkride. If he were, an instructor would just
send him off for his checkride.

In addition, it sounds to me as though you've got a pretty good intuition of
other problems with your instructor. Pointing out where you screw up is
sometimes exactly what a student needs, but most of the time what an
instructor needs to do is explain WHY you screwed up and HOW you can fix it.
There's nothing more frustrating to a student than knowing you blew a
maneuver or didn't hold a heading or altitude or something, and then to only
be told what you already know, rather than how to avoid doing the same thing
in the future.

Well, nothing more frustrating except possible an instructor who holds you
back.

Anyway, you gotta get yourself a flight with a different instructor.
Preferably several flights, and maybe even with several different
instructors. You have been flying enough now that you will probably quickly
pick up on differences in instructional techniques, and will find at least
one instructor that you "mesh" with far better than the one you've got now.

Pete

JustMe wrote:
(snip)
I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, (snip)

Proficiency in simulated instrument flight is not a requirement to be
able to solo at the private pilot level. The goal of simulated
instrument instruction is to empower a non-instrument rated pilot to be
able to safely make a 180 degree turn out of instrument conditions that
are inadverdently encountered (what was cloud clearance again????).. or
to hopefully allow you to descend through an overcast you have become
stranded above (again.. plan properly, stay abreast of conditions and
you should never need this EMERGENCY procedure). Your instructor should
set strict enough "solo limits" that should prevent you from
inadverdently encountering instrument conditions.

Landings. (snip)

If you can safely take the plane around the pattern on your own without
breaking it, yourself or another other objects, then you should be near
the point you can be solo'd in the pattern.

If you can get from point a to point b without being corrected by the
instructor, you may even be ready for solo flights between airports.

I don't think it's the instructor.

It MAY be your instructor.

(snip)

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

Ask to fly with another instructor or with the chief flight instructor
for a second opinion. This is a perfectly valid approach to take. If you
dont feel that the staff at THAT school can give you an honest second
opinion, go find a freelance instructor or another school. It would be
PREFERABLE to take this "second opinion" ride in the same type of
aircraft you have been training in.. less to "learn" while demonstrating
your stuff.

Granted, only your side of the situation has been presented here.
Something appears amiss. The instructor works for you.. that doesnt mean
that he should "sway" or "bend" his principles and standards because you
are handing over money.. what it DOES mean is that as the consumer you
have the right to get your money's worth of training and experience, and
the right to take your self and your $$ elsewhere if you dont feel you
are getting value. Talk to the current instructor. Get the
"deficiencies" listed, in writing. Find out what he/she's thinking.
Shop around. If two or three instructors from different schools ( after
a few hours with you) all feel that you arent able to solo safely (or
progress to completion of your PPL) then maybe flying isnt your best
choice for a hobby.

Dave
Not a flight instructor, just a pilot.