4130 - bad news...

This message came in today from one of Tailwind gurus.

This is NOT good news, so I'm considering it as bad news.


Richard Lamb

---------------------------------------------------------------

I just talked to Charllie at Dillsburg concerting 4130 sheet. I now
call weekly for the latest update. According to Charlie (and I agree)
what we are seeing with 4130 is endemic of the entire steel supply.
Over the years, America's ability to manufacture our own steel has
steadily diminished to the point where we are now dependent of CHINA
for 4130. They can charge whatever they want and deliver according to
their own convenience.

Out sourcing of our ability to produce the products we need is a
disaster that threatens everything. Terrorists, who want to see the
end of our country, don't need to do a thing except wait. Our own
stupidity, greed and laziness will do the job for them. Jerry

Richard Lamb wrote ...
This message came in today from one of Tailwind gurus.

...
Over the years, America's ability to manufacture our own steel has
steadily diminished to the point where we are now dependent of CHINA
for 4130. They can charge whatever they want and deliver according to
their own convenience.


Having done a bit of work with the steel industry, I have to point out
a couple of common fallacies in the above.

#1, there is absolutely no problem in America's ability to manufacture
4130 sheet (or any other alloy). The limitation is not in the ability
to make it, but rather in the lack of demand. There simply isn't
enough demand to warrant making 4130 sheet, even in the modern, highly
successful and highly profitable mini-mills such as Nucor.

#2, regarding the Chinese, they're neither "charging what they want"
nor "delivering according to their own convenience". That's why you
don't see new stock being delivered at any price. They're not
interested in the 4130 sheet niche either.

Daniel

(Daniel) wrote in message . com...
#1, there is absolutely no problem in America's ability to manufacture
4130 sheet (or any other alloy). The limitation is not in the ability
to make it, but rather in the lack of demand. There simply isn't
enough demand to warrant making 4130 sheet, even in the modern, highly
successful and highly profitable mini-mills such as Nucor.

Daniel

Rather than a lack of demand I think it might be more accurate to say
that there is more demand for other kinds of steel products. This is
because the production capacity is pretty well maxed out. If it were
not there would be someone trying to find an unfilled niche.

But no matter the reason - there is no 4130N available - and IMHO
there probably won't be for maybe several years.

So it looks like we need to find a substitute. I've been doing some
looking for the last couple of months but I'm no metallurgist and most
of my time has been spent educating myself in the ways of steel. So
far my local steel store has not been able to get anything I have come
up with unless I want to buy a whole truck load. I don't/can't.

Anyone have some opinions on a suitable substitute?
=================
Leon McAtee

Leon McAtee wrote:

Rather than a lack of demand I think it might be more accurate to say
that there is more demand for other kinds of steel products. This is
because the production capacity is pretty well maxed out. If it were
not there would be someone trying to find an unfilled niche.

But no matter the reason - there is no 4130N available - and IMHO
there probably won't be for maybe several years.

So it looks like we need to find a substitute. I've been doing some
looking for the last couple of months but I'm no metallurgist and most
of my time has been spent educating myself in the ways of steel. So
far my local steel store has not been able to get anything I have come
up with unless I want to buy a whole truck load. I don't/can't.

Anyone have some opinions on a suitable substitute?
=================
Leon McAtee


Well, now that you mention it, this does put the 4130/DOM(?)
argument in a slightly different light.

Anybody wanna say, "I told you so"?




Richard Lamb

http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/happy.htm
(My parasol - built of riveted extruded aluminum angle)

In Leon McAtee wrote:

But no matter the reason - there is no 4130N available - and IMHO
there probably won't be for maybe several years.

So it looks like we need to find a substitute. I've been doing some
looking for the last couple of months but I'm no metallurgist and most
of my time has been spent educating myself in the ways of steel. So
far my local steel store has not been able to get anything I have come
up with unless I want to buy a whole truck load. I don't/can't.

I was under the impression that 4130A (annealed) sheet was still
available, the only difference between that and 4130N (normalized) being
the heat treatment. It should be possible to have parts made from "A"
heat treated to "N" condition, right?

Also, the last time this was discussed there was only a shortage of
4130N sheet. Has that now spread to tubing as well?

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

One solution is to normalize your own sheet - apparently it IS
possible to get tempered 4130.

But I've been wondering if the solution isn't High Strength Low Alloy
(HSLA) steels. I know nothing about their weldability compared to
4130, but I do know that tons and tons of the stuff are used in cars
and industrial equipment.

That's where I think homebuilding and experimental aviation as a whole
needs to start looking.

But no matter the reason - there is no 4130N available - and IMHO
there probably won't be for maybe several years.

So it looks like we need to find a substitute. I've been doing some
looking for the last couple of months but I'm no metallurgist and most
of my time has been spent educating myself in the ways of steel. So
far my local steel store has not been able to get anything I have come
up with unless I want to buy a whole truck load. I don't/can't.

Anyone have some opinions on a suitable substitute?
=================
Leon McAtee

(Ryan Young) wrote in message om...
One solution is to normalize your own sheet - apparently it IS
possible to get tempered 4130.

Even the annealed stuff is in short supply. Last time I checked with
Dllsburg (about 10 days ago) he sad - maybe - in a month.

But I've been wondering if the solution isn't High Strength Low Alloy
(HSLA) steels. I know nothing about their weldability compared to
4130, but I do know that tons and tons of the stuff are used in cars
and industrial equipment.

This is where my wanderings have lead me. Welding could be different.

http://www.us.cbmm.com.br/english/so...il/weldabi.htm

I know most auto manufactures prohibit gas welding the stuff. MIG or
TIG is OK and brass should not be a problem as long as the temp stays
low enough. Some of the HSLA's apparantly are highly corrosion
resistant as well.

ASTM A606, A1011, A1008 and ASTM A715 are specs of some steel that
might work. Supply should not be a problem in thicknes between .020"
and .125"

http://www.ussteel.com/corp/sheet/cr/crs.htm
===========================
Leon McAtee

On 11 May 2004 18:07:52 -0700, (Leon McAtee)
wrote:

(Ryan Young) wrote in message om...
One solution is to normalize your own sheet - apparently it IS
possible to get tempered 4130.

Even the annealed stuff is in short supply. Last time I checked with
Dllsburg (about 10 days ago) he sad - maybe - in a month.

But I've been wondering if the solution isn't High Strength Low Alloy
(HSLA) steels. I know nothing about their weldability compared to
4130, but I do know that tons and tons of the stuff are used in cars
and industrial equipment.

This is where my wanderings have lead me. Welding could be different.

http://www.us.cbmm.com.br/english/so...il/weldabi.htm

I know most auto manufactures prohibit gas welding the stuff. MIG or
TIG is OK and brass should not be a problem as long as the temp stays
low enough. Some of the HSLA's apparantly are highly corrosion
resistant as well.

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. Mig and tig are acceptable if done to
specifications - spot welding is most common.

ASTM A606, A1011, A1008 and ASTM A715 are specs of some steel that
might work. Supply should not be a problem in thicknes between .020"
and .125"

http://www.ussteel.com/corp/sheet/cr/crs.htm
===========================
Leon McAtee

Richard Lamb wrote:

I just talked to Charllie at Dillsburg concerting 4130 sheet. I now
call weekly for the latest update. According to Charlie (and I agree)
what we are seeing with 4130 is endemic of the entire steel supply.
Over the years, America's ability to manufacture our own steel has
steadily diminished to the point where we are now dependent of CHINA
for 4130. They can charge whatever they want and deliver according to
their own convenience.

The Chinese are having a HUGE building boom in the free trade zone. This is
driving the price of all steels sky high and many other materials used in
building. With everyone from Boeing to Intel moving there what can we expect?
(Intel is moving manufacturing AND R&D).

It is a basic supply/demand problem.

-- Charlie Springer