Encrypted Flarmnet files and 3rd party software

I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run into, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were worth leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to associate the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that is displayed.

This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not gotten the better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near term one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part sight, and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be usable in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone concerned about being tracked would not need to register.

Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of this incorrect?

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that since Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a suitably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the encrypted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of hardware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like XCSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an encrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a decryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).

Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to register my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in only, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a company or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all that database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot first name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm device with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to download their database. Perhaps they should...

Marc

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 12:31:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has encrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the Butterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate from the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that since Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a suitably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the encrypted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of hardware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like XCSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an encrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a decryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).

Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to register my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in only, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a company or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all that database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot first name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm device with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to download their database. Perhaps they should...

Marc

I am told by Butterfly that even there own display will not display this information, at least at present.

Since the PLAU and PLAA sentences pass the ID through the serial port, what is needed is an independent database located somewhere other than Germany where the legal considerations originate. From it an unencrypted file can be produced that will work with all existing software. It could be populated initially with the last unencrypted file which is de facto public record.

John, my understanding is that Butterfly display need the 3.4 version to support the new encrypted database. Where did you hear that the call sign is no longer supported, even with the new 3.4 firmware? This doesn't make much sense. If call sign is no longer showing I expect this is a temporary bug.

Ramy

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 2:10:20 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
John, my understanding is that Butterfly display need the 3.4 version to support the new encrypted database. Where did you hear that the call sign is no longer supported, even with the new 3.4 firmware? This doesn't make much sense. If call sign is no longer showing I expect this is a temporary bug.

Ramy

This was in response to an enquiry to Air Avionics. It is possible I misinterpreted the answer, and that the Butterfly display would be able to decode the file. But PDA software, including their own iGlide, will not at this time. Maybe the Air people can step in and clarify the answer. I do not have a Butterfly Flarm display in my cockpit, so for me anyway, this means no pilot ID.

Has anyone seen pilot IDs on the new firmware? In the other thread, someone had upgraded everything and said they saw only codes, no pilot info.

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
e=
ncrypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
Bu=
tterfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
f=
rom the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I haven't played around much with this stuff, yet, but I assume that
since
=
Butterfly runs FlarmNet, their displays will certainly have access to a
sui=
tably encrypted database. They may also choose (or not) to pass the
encryp=
ted database and keys to LXNAV, LX Avionics, and other manufacturers of
har=
dware devices. Where this is going to be a problem is with software like
X=
CSoar, LK8000, etc., as I don't believe there is any way to distribute an
e=
ncrypted database for use with open source software, without revealing a
de=
cryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).

Personally, my preferred way to handle this would be to refuse to
register
=
my Flarm device with a private company that does not make their (opt-in
onl=
y, of course) database openly available, and instead register with a
compan=
y or organization that promises to make the data open to all. About all
tha=
t database need contain is a tail number, glider type, and perhaps pilot
fi=
rst name and last initial. I note that one can now register their Flarm
de=
vice with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to
download
=
their database. Perhaps they should...

Marc

It is early days for the OGN file. I guess the first priority is to get OGN
up and running with the Flarm Tracking Server.

Have you subscribed to the Open Glider Network discussion group
(http://wiki.glidernet.org/contact)? Perhaps you could influence the
design.

Tim.

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

cryption key that can be used by the "bad guys" (OGN).


Why in your opinion OGN are bad guys? This was open database, people
gave their data (true or not) voluntarily. Now in flarm said in the name of

all including those who don't mind, to explicitly say it is no longer
opened to
OGN and others.

But hey! There is alternative!

Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

At 19:31 19 March 2015, wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
I note that one can now register their Flarm
de=
vice with OGN, but they do not appear to have a link available to
download
=
their database. Perhaps they should...

Marc


I believe this will be sorted out soon. They are not paid for their effort,
so
they don't work on this full time. And hey, how you did contributed today?
Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

At 18:31 19 March 2015, jfitch wrote:
I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
enc=
rypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
Butt=
erfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
fro=
m the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run
int=
o, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were
worth
=
leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
associat=
e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
is
=
displayed.

This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
gotten
th=
e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
t=
erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
sight,
=
and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
usa=
ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
concerned
a=
bout being tracked would not need to register.=20

Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
this
in=
correct?


Open Glider DB:
http://live.glidernet.org/db/

It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!


Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 6:15:06 PM UTC-7, Wolf Aviator wrote:
At 18:31 19 March 2015, jfitch wrote:
I think this merits its own thread. Due to legal concerns, Flarmnet has
enc=
rypted their files, and as I understand it most displays including the
Butt=
erfly will no longer show pilot or glider information. This is separate
fro=
m the opt in/out of tracking as I understand it.

I liked the ability to see who was flying the glider I was about to run
int=
o, or at least was opposite me in the circle. Also whether they were
worth
=
leeching off of. Of course you can still do that, but will need to
associat=
e the Flarm ID with the pilot in your head, since that will be all that
is
=
displayed.

This seems like a step backwards for those who's paranoia has not
gotten
th=
e better of them. I'm not sure what he solution is, but at least one near
t=
erm one would be to encourage everyone to re-register on a 3rd part
sight,
=
and recreate the old style Flarmnet database which would continue to be
usa=
ble in existing PDA and (perhaps) display head firmware. Anyone
concerned
a=
bout being tracked would not need to register.=20

Does anyone else see this as a step forward? Is my understanding of
this
in=
correct?


Open Glider DB:
http://live.glidernet.org/db/

It is up to you, consumers to decide what system wins!


Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

So the OGN database is a replacement for the Flarmnet database? I can load it into my SYM or Winpilot and leech freely?