OGN

So, as I understand it, the current situation with the Open Glider
Network is that:

It relies on tracking Flarm collision data against Flarm's wishes.

It relies on using the Flarmnet database (which is encoded so that
the database can't be downlosded and be easily human readable)
against their wishes.

It relies on a free-to-OGN network of ground receivers that have been
voluntarily set up and funded by glider pilots (including myself who
has funded one) to receive Flarm transmissions.

Now the OGN want to sell us commercial transmitters

Hmmmm.

Flarm radar has been extremely useful and fun in the last year in
Europe but we glider pilots collectively own the vital ingredient which
is the ground receiver network and I for one wont be buying a tracker
from the OGN in those circumstances.

John Galloway

Am 20.03.2015 um 09:48 schrieb John Galloway:
So, as I understand it, the current situation with the Open Glider
Network is that:

It relies on tracking Flarm collision data against Flarm's wishes.

It relies on using the Flarmnet database (which is encoded so that
the database can't be downlosded and be easily human readable)
against their wishes.

It relies on a free-to-OGN network of ground receivers that have been
voluntarily set up and funded by glider pilots (including myself who
has funded one) to receive Flarm transmissions.

Now the OGN want to sell us commercial transmitters

Hmmmm.

Flarm radar has been extremely useful and fun in the last year in
Europe but we glider pilots collectively own the vital ingredient which
is the ground receiver network and I for one wont be buying a tracker
from the OGN in those circumstances.

John Galloway


What's the source about OGN trying to sell us commercial transmitters? I
cannot confirm this.

In my understanding, there are ongoing negociations between OGN
programmers and FLARM representatives to find a solution for decoding
Flarm data packets that satisfy all participants - Flarm Company, OGN
activists, pilots not wanting their data published on the internet.

IMHO this might still take a while, and until then there will be no OGN
service available.

You might refer to the OGN tracker service, but this is only an
alternative signal source for OGN, I guess not many pilots will add
hardware fjust for the purpose of beeing able to be tracked. OGN success
lives and dies with the ability to use Flarm signals.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

At 09:35 20 March 2015, Peter Scholz wrote:
Am 20.03.2015 um 09:48 schrieb John Galloway:

You might refer to the OGN tracker service, but this is only an
alternative signal source for OGN, I guess not many pilots will add
hardware fjust for the purpose of beeing able to be tracked. OGN success
lives and dies with the ability to use Flarm signals.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE


In my opinion, OGN success lives and dies with people supporting certain
ideas. This is what happens when you support monopolistic, closed
solutions. You don't need to buy so called OGN tracker, you can build one
on your own.

Or try to convince FLARM to open their protocol LOL
Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

At 08:48 20 March 2015, John Galloway wrote:
So, as I understand it, the current situation with the Open Glider
Network is that:

It relies on tracking Flarm collision data against Flarm's wishes.

It relies on using the Flarmnet database (which is encoded so that
the database can't be downlosded and be easily human readable)
against their wishes.

It relies on a free-to-OGN network of ground receivers that have been
voluntarily set up and funded by glider pilots (including myself who
has funded one) to receive Flarm transmissions.

Now the OGN want to sell us commercial transmitters

Hmmmm.

Flarm radar has been extremely useful and fun in the last year in
Europe but we glider pilots collectively own the vital ingredient which
is the ground receiver network and I for one wont be buying a tracker
from the OGN in those circumstances.

John Galloway



O my dear god...

What FLARM has to say about how what I do with device I bought?

OGN were using OPEN (until now) flarmnet DB, so they do not rely on it
anymore. The data in this database was put voluntarly by pilots to be
visible, then flarmnet (founded by FLARM), just decided that it is their DB
and explicitely said that OGN is not welcomed. They took this action in
name of all those who put their data in. All of them are ok with this?

John, I founded 3 stations, helped quite significantly with one more
(donating my antenna and time), and I am setting up another one soon too. I
am not expecting for medal though.

People involved in OGN developed software without which your hardware is no
god for tracking. Found good source of cheap good quality antennas, and
involved in making orders from China. No big deal, just put your money
first, deal with the order, collect money later and distribute among
people. Their time has no value for you?

And then FLARM is changing a protocol and encryption for sole purpose
making OGN useless and make you to force use their tracking server (when
they make it eventually), and you blame OGN?

Question for FLARM owners: how many of you are happy that FLARM company is
making things this way: either you update software or you device which you
paid not such small amount for a archaic hardware which is inside or your
device is useless?

FLARM radar were extremely useful, you say, but hey, no what flarm did good
for it? Just don't say they made a device, because it is not a rocked
science. Have you heard about DSX?

And then OGN proposed their open protocol and made a device using this
protocol. Whoever will make a device using this protocol is not is not
forcing you to buy it by any means. Just accept the blackout.

Or wait, you know what you can do? Buy PowerFlarm for 700 euro + VAT and be
happy with 15km maybe 20km range. TV dongle (R820T chip) sensitivity is
superior to nRF905.

John, OGN didn't switched FLARM protocol to make some people create OGN
tracker and use it for tracking.

Anyway, what price are they going to ask? What do you think?

Oh you can say, I'll wait for FLARM to make their software for my receiver
and they will make their tracking server and be happy that some community
project just died. Be happy with limited range, be happy with closed
protocol, be happy with 700 euro device (+VAT), be happy with that there is
no alternative, be happy with dubious "anti-collision" on 8 bit
architecture which is in pre PowerFlarm devices. How many packets per
second those old FLARMs are able to cope? DSX claims that their device with
16 bit microcontroller running at 25MHz is able to cope with up to 50
tracks. Do you think 8bit microcontroller with slower clock can do better
job?

Oh, BTW, you can make your own tracker. The protocol is open, so there is
no need for buying anything from anyone.

Here are my two cents.


Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

I am one of those who is quite happy that the FlarmNet database was shut down. I did register (years ago) so that I can meet buddies in the air or know on which frequency the guy opposite me in the thermal would be. I did NOT register to be tracked by anybody sitting in front of a screen.
So when I learned about OGN, I deleted my entry into FlarmNet - pitty, though. If OGN would have provided an opt-in, everything would have been fine - but they didn't. They even didn't provide a opt-out (other than what I did, or switching to stealth and deal with reduced warning modes). Noboday actual knows who "they" are. If only one of them disrespects the stealth flag, you can't avoid being tracked.

Now Flarm has decided to put that on a reliable track, and that's fine with me.

On Friday, 20 March 2015 16:28:29 UTC+1, Tango Whisky wrote:
They even didn't provide a opt-out (other than what I did, or switching to stealth and deal with reduced warning modes).

Even the "privacy options" OGN did provide were only respected on the surface. OGN distributed the complete data of everything they received in the full network to anyone who connected to their data stream with an alternate client including full precision data of FLARMs set to stealth mode.

Many pilots would have stopped using the FLARM under these circumstances. I consider the reaction of FLARM Technology quite accommodating given that the primary function of FLARMs (collision prevention) would be significantly impaired if the usage percentage drops.

I'm one of the guys behind Flarm.
Please stop the nonsense.

The update that happens now has been scheduled and announced for the last 4 years, not due to OGN.

However, due to issues caused by OGN (such as tracking privacy) as well as issues experienced by OGN (such as range ambiguity), the update contains additional elements, some of which can make the combination-OGN more powerful, in both technical and legal terms.

We think OGN is largely a cool thing, and we have reasons to believe OGN+Flarm can fruitfully cooperate, to the benefit of gliding. If some conditions are met, such as OGN accepts the FlarmTrackingServer for decoding, and OGN dies not engage in an aircraft tracker. And OGN is learning that not anything goes.

OGN will have a problem without Flarm. Flarm may have a problem without OGN.. Some know that.

Flarm focussed on the update that was published days ago, and is currently busy with the related support for 25k+ units spread over 30 hardware designs. This work is not done when a release is published.

Flarm will refocus on the TrackingServer next week again to make this happening for OGN.

Let us work, and enjoy gliding.

At 21:28 20 March 2015, wrote:
I'm one of the guys behind Flarm.
Please stop the nonsense.

The update that happens now has been scheduled and announced for the last
4 years, not due to OGN.

However, due to issues caused by OGN (such as tracking privacy) as well as
issues experienced by OGN (such as range ambiguity), the update contains
additional elements, some of which can make the combination-OGN more
powerful, in both technical and legal terms.

We think OGN is largely a cool thing, and we have reasons to believe
OGN+Flarm can fruitfully cooperate, to the benefit of gliding. If some
conditions are met, such as OGN accepts the FlarmTrackingServer for
decoding, and OGN does not engage in an aircraft tracker. And OGN is
learning that not anything goes.

OGN will have a problem without Flarm. Flarm may have a problem without
OGN.. Some know that.

Flarm focussed on the update that was published days ago, and is currently
busy with the related support for 25k+ units spread over 30 hardware
designs. This work is not done when a release is published.

Flarm will refocus on the TrackingServer next week again to make this
happening for OGN.

Let us work, and enjoy gliding.

Thanks Andrea, agree with all that.

Disruptive technology disruption FTW! Ima go get some popcorn.

Bob K.