as a training tool, MS Flt Sim is a farce!!!

The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight
into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on
using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree.
It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things
happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely
fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes,
I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft
simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy
entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!!
That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep
their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to
keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to
write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is
becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc.
That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even
remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for
themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if
you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then
you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those
wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n
brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple
billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me
that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly
like the real thing.
BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS.
M.P. Hall

Hope this helps
Mike

Mike, as someone who spent 35 years in the airline industry you are of
course right when you say that FSIM does not fly like a real plane. But FSIM
DOES fly like a real simulator, eratic, 10 times harder to control than a
real plane and not 100% accurate as far as instrumentation is concerned. But
the purpose of putting flight crews into simulator training on a regular
basis is not to give them a realistic flying experience. It's to get a look
at what they do when certain adverse situations are thrown their way and
test their reaction time among many other things. So for a pilot wannabe it
is a good tool for preparing them when they finally get into a real cockpit
and an excellent tool for an instructor. And YES, a great eye candy game
too!! MURPHY




"mike popken" wrote in message
om...
The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight
into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on
using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree.
It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things
happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely
fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes,
I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft
simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy
entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!!
That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep
their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to
keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to
write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is
becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc.
That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even
remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for
themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if
you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then
you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those
wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n
brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple
billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me
that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly
like the real thing.
BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS.
M.P. Hall

Hope this helps
Mike

In article ,
(mike popken) wrote:

The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

The critical part of the articvle is the following.
===========
Lacy went on to graduate near the top of his class in flight training,
and the Navy decided to see if using Flight Simulator would help other
students. It found that trainees who used the program did better in
their training, prompting the Navy to issue customized versions of
Flight Simulator to all of its flight students. Flight Simulator also is
used as part of pilot training at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
and FlightSafety International's academy in Vero Beach, Florida.
=============
So one can pooh-pooh all he wants, the bottom line is that FS2004 IS
being used already in flight training, and indications are that it
helps, and there ae competent flight instructors that agree.

========
Even without the FAA's stamp of approval, the Air Safety Foundation's
Landsberg thinks that Flight Simulator could have great benefits for
student pilots, and the foundation is planning a study to quantify those
benefits.

"I'd like to get a group of students and take half of them through
traditional flight training, and half through training where they use
Flight Simulator as a supplement," Landsberg said. "I'll bet you that at
the conclusion, the Flight Simulator group will have saved 25 percent of
the time in the air."
===============
A study is apparentyly under way to determine to what extent FS trining
can help.

Henri

Damn, I was going to borrow my Dad's Cessna and fly to Catalina island this
weekend based on my Flight Simulatoar experience. Guess 'll take a boat.

"mike popken" wrote in message
om...
The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight
into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on
using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree.
It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things
happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely
fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes,
I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft
simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy
entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!!
That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep
their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to
keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to
write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is
becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc.
That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even
remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for
themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if
you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then
you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those
wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n
brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple
billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me
that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly
like the real thing.
BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS.
M.P. Hall

Hope this helps
Mike

I've been a pilot for 23 years, both airplanes and gliders, and I've also
been a glider instructor for 7 years now.

MS FS has never been a GAME. It's exactly what its name implies : a
SIMULATOR.

I have trained pilots who never saw a simulator before and never been in an
airplane or glider before.
I have also had the fortunate experience of getting students with some
experience in MS FS.
The difference is remarkable.
Bottom-line, from my own experience, MS FS is in fact a good auxiliary tool
for an instructor, and it does teach a new pilot some of the physics
involved in flying, such as making some back pressure on the yoke while
turning otherwise the nose will go down, speed will increase, nose will then
come up...and that whole chain reaction.
MS FS is very accurate in that regard.
Aplying power will raise the nose, reducing power will lower the nose,
trim... all of these things are accurately simulated by MS-FS.

What MS FS can't do is give you the G-force in a 60 degree banked turn (2G),
or the visibility we have in the cockpit, or any of the sensory clues we
have such as noise, mushiness on the controls in a pre-stall, and things
like that.

I disagree with relegating MS FS to the status of a Game. It is not.
It is a SIMULATOR.

Try putting a real hardcore gamer in front of MS FS and you'll see a very
frustrated, bored person trying to master something he doesn't understand.
It's exactly like trying to put someone who never flew (simulator or real
thing) to sit in a cockpit and try to fly the thing off the ground. It just
won't happen.

Arnold

"mike popken" wrote in message
om...
The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight
into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on
using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree.
It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things
happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely
fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes,
I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft
simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy
entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!!
That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep
their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to
keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to
write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is
becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc.
That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even
remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for
themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if
you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then
you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those
wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n
brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple
billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me
that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly
like the real thing.
BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS.
M.P. Hall

Hope this helps
Mike

"Arnold Pieper" wrote in message
om...
What MS FS can't do is give you the G-force in a 60 degree banked turn
(2G),
or the visibility we have in the cockpit, or any of the sensory clues we
have such as noise, mushiness on the controls in a pre-stall, and things
like that.

I agree with you regarding G-force and visibility. However, MS FS wind
sounds are quite useful in perceiving airspeed, as is the control feel (if
you use a force-feedback joystick).

--Gary

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:50:29 GMT, "Gary L. Drescher"
wrote:

"Arnold Pieper" wrote in message
. com...
What MS FS can't do is give you the G-force in a 60 degree banked turn
(2G),
or the visibility we have in the cockpit, or any of the sensory clues we
have such as noise, mushiness on the controls in a pre-stall, and things
like that.

I agree with you regarding G-force and visibility. However, MS FS wind
sounds are quite useful in perceiving airspeed, as is the control feel (if
you use a force-feedback joystick).

I agree with everything except the joystick. I use a FF joystick and
it is not realistic in simulating the changes in force with changes in
speed, or the mush just prior to stall.

OTOH, I've found it to be quite realistic in most, but not all other
respects. As a training supplement I think it has some good
possibilities.

I base that on about 1300 hours with over a 1000 in high
performance/complex/retract singles.

I've put about a 1000 hours on this plane in the last 10 years.
www.rogerhalstead.com/833pics.htm

and I'm building a real hotrod if I ever get it finished.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

--Gary

A couple of years ago, my wife's boss's husband called to see if I wanted to
fly up to N.H. with him for lunch. I'd been doing the F.S. deal since MS98
so I jumped at the chance. I was amazed when I got in the cockpit of the
rented 172. I knew what everything was. Tom was using a handheld Garmin GPS,
a really neat unit. I asked why he wasn't using the installed GPS. He said
he really didn't know how it worked, but I did. During the flight up I shot
radials. He asked how the hell I knew all this stuff, I'd never been in a
plane before, I'm sure you all know the answer. So on the flight home, I
took the controls during climbout, flew the radials while he watched on his
Garmin, and flew the approach to the thresh hold. He was shocked and so was
I. Was it the same as F.S.and vice versa? No way. Could I have done what I
did without F.S.? No way. If he had become ill during our flights could I
have kept us from crashing? More than likely! And no it's not a game!
"mike popken" wrote in message
om...
The following was the original comment in this thread:

"See Wired magazine:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...w=wn_tophead_6

People have criticized me in the past for suggesting that someone
could
learn much of the skills of piloting with FS, but it seems that I'm in
good company."
==============

If the poster is suggesting a wanna-be pilot could gain some insight
into ATC, he would be right. And ditto for a little background on
using VOR navigation, and with fs2004, the Garmin GPS. I would agree.
It is also helpful for a wanna-be pilot to experience how fast things
happen when you fly, how mentally quick one must be in order to safely
fly a plane. Here I agree again, but as one who has flown real planes,
I cound not disagree more if the poster is suggesting Microsoft
simulator planes fly like the REAL THING. Microsof FS is an eye candy
entertainment GAME. Got that word the:: G A M E!!!!!!!!
That's all it is, an eye candy game, to entertain people, to keep
their minds off the sewer society we are (and have) slid off into, to
keep people preoccupied with utter nonsense so they won't have time to
write or call their congressmen about what a mess the world is
becoming, so they won't have time to organize war demonstrations, etc.
That is the only purpose of this product. MS airplaines do NOT even
remotely fly like the real thing, and all one need do to prove it for
themselves is go fly a real plane and you'll see for yourself. Then if
you still believe MS simulator planes fly like the real thing, then
you are probably a devoute religious person that belives all those
wierd stories about God destroying His own creations, causing fire n
brimstone, hell, devils, etc. And just think, there are a couple
billion people who believe all this crap, so it does not surprise me
that millions of Flt Sim fans believe Microsoft's simulator planes fly
like the real thing.
BETWEEN EVERY MAN AND REALITY LIE HIS MOST CHERISHED ILLUSIONS.
M.P. Hall

Hope this helps
Mike

On Thursday, in article bmXsb.333$%b2.8@lakeread05
"mrhct" wrote:

A couple of years ago, my wife's boss's husband called to see if I wanted to
fly up to N.H. with him for lunch. I'd been doing the F.S. deal since MS98
so I jumped at the chance. I was amazed when I got in the cockpit of the
rented 172. I knew what everything was. Tom was using a handheld Garmin GPS,
a really neat unit. I asked why he wasn't using the installed GPS. He said
he really didn't know how it worked, but I did. During the flight up I shot
radials. He asked how the hell I knew all this stuff, I'd never been in a
plane before, I'm sure you all know the answer. So on the flight home, I
took the controls during climbout, flew the radials while he watched on his
Garmin, and flew the approach to the thresh hold. He was shocked and so was
I. Was it the same as F.S.and vice versa? No way. Could I have done what I
did without F.S.? No way. If he had become ill during our flights could I
have kept us from crashing? More than likely! And no it's not a game!

My own suspicion is that one of the big differences is that FS
experience tends to discourage head movement. It's certainly a factor
in such as CFS, and the other flight combat products which try for
realism.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:24:43 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote:


My own suspicion is that one of the big differences is that FS
experience tends to discourage head movement. It's certainly a factor
in such as CFS, and the other flight combat products which try for
realism.

While head movement in a combat plane is probably a good thing,
according to the NTSB head movement is what killed Karnahan.