Lancair IV-P lost near Lansing MI

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
Roger Halstead wrote:


Any one have any information on the IV-P that went down around 2:00 PM
about 30 miles west of Lansing MI on Monday?

There was a story in the paper, but it was a bit short on details.
It was registered to Ward Synthesis Inc. The flight was to be from
Ypsilanti MI to Billings Mont.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Has photo here
http://fox17.trb.com/news/053104-wxm...,2121139.story


http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/...8_20040601.htm
The Eaton County sheriff's department identified the victims as Allen
Ward, 52, of Ypsilanti, the pilot; and passengers Jeffrey Chen, 23, of
Milford and Roger Hertz, 36, of Burlington, Ontario

Lots of links
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T56123478



Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

"Darkwing Duck (The Duck, The Myth, The Legend)"
wrote in message ...

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
Roger Halstead wrote:


Any one have any information on the IV-P that went down around 2:00 PM
about 30 miles west of Lansing MI on Monday?

There was a story in the paper, but it was a bit short on details.
It was registered to Ward Synthesis Inc. The flight was to be from
Ypsilanti MI to Billings Mont.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Has photo here
http://fox17.trb.com/news/053104-wxm...,2121139.story


http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/...8_20040601.htm
The Eaton County sheriff's department identified the victims as Allen
Ward, 52, of Ypsilanti, the pilot; and passengers Jeffrey Chen, 23, of
Milford and Roger Hertz, 36, of Burlington, Ontario

Lots of links
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T56123478



Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).


Yeah. Looks like a stall-spin scenario alright. I wonder why they
got it into a stall in the first place?

This is really sad because the ****ing insurance companies are going
to stop insuring the Lancairs because of the high accident rates.
I'll bet you most of them throw in the towel soon. Insurance runs
$12,000 a year now on the Legacy.

The Lancair's have that high aspect ratio wing with high wing
loading. The Legacy is up at about 23 pounds/sq ft, and when it
stalls, it bites hard. Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.
I was talking to a Legacy owner yesterday and he told me he never
stalled his, NEVER. He just didn't want to pursue the flight
characteristics in a stall. So, he just flies it fast all the time.
I guess that's one way of doing it. But, I'd rather be proficient at
recovery from a stall than never try it. That's just the way I feel
about it. I'd stall and spin the **** out of it if I had one. With
the new EFIS panels, you're not going to tumble a $3000 gyro anymore.
I'd spin it until I got proficient at the recovery or proficient at
avoiding a spin if it stalled. If you don't do that, your envelope is
pretty narrow.

BWB

"Badwater Bill" wrote in message
.. .

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just
ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).


Yeah. Looks like a stall-spin scenario alright. I wonder why they
got it into a stall in the first place?

This is really sad because the ****ing insurance companies are going
to stop insuring the Lancairs because of the high accident rates.
I'll bet you most of them throw in the towel soon. Insurance runs
$12,000 a year now on the Legacy.

The Lancair's have that high aspect ratio wing with high wing
loading. The Legacy is up at about 23 pounds/sq ft, and when it
stalls, it bites hard. Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.
I was talking to a Legacy owner yesterday and he told me he never
stalled his, NEVER. He just didn't want to pursue the flight
characteristics in a stall. So, he just flies it fast all the time.
I guess that's one way of doing it. But, I'd rather be proficient at
recovery from a stall than never try it. That's just the way I feel
about it. I'd stall and spin the **** out of it if I had one. With
the new EFIS panels, you're not going to tumble a $3000 gyro anymore.
I'd spin it until I got proficient at the recovery or proficient at
avoiding a spin if it stalled. If you don't do that, your envelope is
pretty narrow.

BWB




Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your right on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.

As far as the fuel exhaustion deal, the articles did mention that witnesses
said the engine wasn't running at times and lack of fire in the photos so it
seems.

On 2004-06-03 00:59, Darkwing Duck (The Duck, The Myth, The Legend) wrote:

-snip-


Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your right on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.


-snip-

I wonder if a parachute will do much good if you are stalled/spinning;
I'm thinking it would only twist itself up, and never deploy fully.


/Rolf

"Rolf Blom" wrote in message
...

I wonder if a parachute will do much good if you are stalled/spinning;
I'm thinking it would only twist itself up, and never deploy fully.

Spin chutes are a routine part of flight testing of airplanes in case the
airplane is found to have unrecoverable spin characteristics.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Rolf: I once opened my parachute in free fall while I was spinning so fast
the ground was a blur. The chute opened with the lines twisted together all
the way to the lower lateral band of the canopy. I almost got sick
unwinding, then overshooting, then unwinding again but the chute did open as
much as it could with the lines wound up and it did unwind coming down.
Stu Fields
"Rolf Blom" wrote in message
...
On 2004-06-03 00:59, Darkwing Duck (The Duck, The Myth, The Legend) wrote:

-snip-


Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your
right on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.


-snip-

I wonder if a parachute will do much good if you are stalled/spinning;
I'm thinking it would only twist itself up, and never deploy fully.


/Rolf

Not to worry, the stall in the new 400 is supposed to be trainer like.

Can't wait to fly one of those babies. Better than a parachute is a good
stall behavior if you ask me. Besides that parachute is costing Cirrus more
in insurance if you ask me.





"Darkwing Duck (The Duck, The Myth, The Legend)"
wrote in message ...

"Badwater Bill" wrote in message
.. .

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just
ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like
it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the
ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit
the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).


Yeah. Looks like a stall-spin scenario alright. I wonder why they
got it into a stall in the first place?

This is really sad because the ****ing insurance companies are going
to stop insuring the Lancairs because of the high accident rates.
I'll bet you most of them throw in the towel soon. Insurance runs
$12,000 a year now on the Legacy.

The Lancair's have that high aspect ratio wing with high wing
loading. The Legacy is up at about 23 pounds/sq ft, and when it
stalls, it bites hard. Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.
I was talking to a Legacy owner yesterday and he told me he never
stalled his, NEVER. He just didn't want to pursue the flight
characteristics in a stall. So, he just flies it fast all the time.
I guess that's one way of doing it. But, I'd rather be proficient at
recovery from a stall than never try it. That's just the way I feel
about it. I'd stall and spin the **** out of it if I had one. With
the new EFIS panels, you're not going to tumble a $3000 gyro anymore.
I'd spin it until I got proficient at the recovery or proficient at
avoiding a spin if it stalled. If you don't do that, your envelope is
pretty narrow.

BWB




Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your right
on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.

As far as the fuel exhaustion deal, the articles did mention that
witnesses
said the engine wasn't running at times and lack of fire in the photos so
it
seems.

Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your right on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.

As far as the fuel exhaustion deal, the articles did mention that witnesses
said the engine wasn't running at times and lack of fire in the photos so it
seems.

Can't do it. Not enough useful load. IN the Legacy with full fuel
and a 220 pound PIC, he can only get in his girlfriend and no baggage
right now. There's really no wieight left for an onboard oxygen
system, let alone a parachute.

BWB

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message ...


Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.


You sound like the guy to answer a question I've had for a long time.
You know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas. I've always wondered
if it was true. Now you state essentially the same about
Lancairs...it's doctors (of course they are richer than anyone else
who flies) who "fly them and get killed." Assuming you know what
you're talking about, what percent of Lancairs are owned by doctors,
and what percent of fatal Lancair accidents involve doctor pilots as
opposed to any other profession of pilot? Also, using any definition
of rich you wish, are doctor pilots any richer than lawyer pilots,
business man pilots,etc. I have no bone to pick here other than
wanting to know whether this stereotyping is justified. I won't know
unless you or anyone else can back it up with referenced statistics.