Suggestions for a specification for the ideal training glider

Excellent points, may I suggest a slight change...

must be capable of spinning, but not so spin prone that it's dangerous.

Obviously, you want a glider that will spin for spin training. If it
spins with little warnin, or doesn't like to recover, then it's dangerous.

NigelPocock wrote:
There has been a lot of discussion in our club recently about what makes the
ideal training glider
We have been using ASK13s for years but the design is now 30 years old and we
would like to think that using modern materials something can be designed to
take us forward into the 21st century.

A number of points have already come up-
* must be capable of spinning
* Robust for club use
* Easily repaired
* Safety cell
* Good visibility
* light, good handling
* Spacious cockpit
* Wide pilot weight limits (100 to 300 pounds!)
* capable of sensible cross country flights
and finally must look good. We want to attract potential members and customers

None of the current crop of two seaters fulfill all of these requirements. Can
anyone add to this list or suggest anything suitable?
Nigel

There was a side-by-side two seat fibreglass glider designed
in Australia by Harry Schneider during the 1980s (I think).
One prototype was built and is still flying. Unfortunately
no finance was forthcoming to put this glider into
production. Whether it met all of your requirements, I
don't know, but all the comments I have heard from people
who have flown it have been very positive. I presume the
drawings and maybe the moulds would still exist somewhere.
Cheers, John G.

"NigelPocock" wrote in message
...
| There has been a lot of discussion in our club recently
about what makes the
| ideal training glider
| We have been using ASK13s for years but the design is now
30 years old and we
| would like to think that using modern materials something
can be designed to
| take us forward into the 21st century.
|
| A number of points have already come up-
| * must be capable of spinning
| * Robust for club use
| * Easily repaired
| * Safety cell
| * Good visibility
| * light, good handling
| * Spacious cockpit
| * Wide pilot weight limits (100 to 300 pounds!)
| * capable of sensible cross country flights
| and finally must look good. We want to attract potential
members and customers
|
| None of the current crop of two seaters fulfill all of
these requirements. Can
| anyone add to this list or suggest anything suitable?
| Nigel

Derek Piggott has flown this glider (the Platypus) and has always raved
about it. A great pity it did not reach production.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"John Giddy" wrote in message
...

There was a side-by-side two seat fibreglass glider designed
in Australia by Harry Schneider during the 1980s (I think).
One prototype was built and is still flying. Unfortunately
no finance was forthcoming to put this glider into
production. Whether it met all of your requirements, I
don't know, but all the comments I have heard from people
who have flown it have been very positive. I presume the
drawings and maybe the moulds would still exist somewhere.

Cheers, John G.

What about cost? You seem to have forgotten this.

Cost to buy, cost to run, cost to repair (time and money), cost to overhaul
when this is eventually necessary?
Or is Lasham so rich this does not matter to you?

What about the standing of the manufacturer and the agent?

When Lasham tried the demonstration K21 for the first time (I personally
arranged the demonstration) Derek Piggott (then the Chief Flying Instructor)
rejected it because it was not satisfactory for teaching the stall/spin,
whereas the K13 was. This is still true, and this was also the opinion of
Graham McAndrew (C.F.I. until less than a year ago). Tim Macfadyen (CFI
at Nympsfield) agrees (and so do I).

Why should the age of the design be a problem? Lasham has just spent a lot
of money on the complete overhaul of two tugs, DR400-180R G-BJUD and
PA18-180 G-ATRG which are older than any of the K13s, and why not? They
look magnificent, and they do the job as well as they ever did.

Surrey Club (who own the single seaters for club use at Lasham) has been
buying ASW19s, how old are they? What matters is condition and history,
and it is a very sensible choice for S. & H.

In my view the best two-seaters for Lasham a

For air experience and first flights: K21.

For main training to "off checks" stage and through to Bronze: K13.

For early post-solo training for soaring, cross-country and conversion to
glass single seaters (and aerobatics): K21.

For advanced training for cross-country and competition: Duo-Discus.

For field landing and navigation training: Motor-Falke.

Funny old thing, this is much what Lasham has today. Money burning a hole
in your pockets, or just boredom because the season is over?

As someone pointed out on Lasham's Yahoo chat board, you do not use BMW 5
series to teach people to drive, even if it is what they want to have when
they have learnt.

There is no single machine which will cover the full spectrum at present
covered by K13, K21 and Duo-Discus, and I doubt if there can be.
Lasham is lucky to be big enough to have the correct machine for each job
without having to compromise. Your next purchase should be a second Duo, I
think there are some for sale from people who have one but are buying a
turbo.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"NigelPocock" wrote in message
...

There has been a lot of discussion in our club recently about what makes
the ideal training glider.

We have been using ASK13s for years but the design is now 30 years old and
we would like to think that using modern materials something can be
designed to take us forward into the 21st century.

A number of points have already come up-
* must be capable of spinning
* Robust for club use
* Easily repaired
* Safety cell
* Good visibility
* light, good handling
* Spacious cockpit
* Wide pilot weight limits (100 to 300 pounds!)
* capable of sensible cross country flights
and finally must look good. We want to attract potential members and
customers

None of the current crop of two seaters fulfil all of these requirements.
Can anyone add to this list or suggest anything suitable?

Nigel.

The 2-33 meets a lot of these requirements. The ones
it isn't good at a poor X-country, the canopy needs
attention to confirm it is locked, and the new pilot
cannot just immediately transition to a ballasted/flapped
ship. The Grob 103 and the Blanik can give some additional
value to training, but as has been pointed out, different
gliders teach different things. I'm a big fan of the
2-33 since I have seen power pilots transition to it
in four flights to solo. It doesn't do much for X-C,
but a 2-33 is cheap, weathers well outdoors, has a
big ol cockpit, crashes benignly, and is doggy in pitch
and roll for most CG loadings.

Mark Boyd

M B wrote in message ...
The 2-33 meets a lot of these requirements. The ones
it isn't good at a poor X-country, the canopy needs
attention to confirm it is locked, and the new pilot
cannot just immediately transition to a ballasted/flapped
ship. The Grob 103 and the Blanik can give some additional
value to training, but as has been pointed out, different
gliders teach different things. I'm a big fan of the
2-33 since I have seen power pilots transition to it
in four flights to solo. It doesn't do much for X-C,
but a 2-33 is cheap, weathers well outdoors, has a
big ol cockpit, crashes benignly, and is doggy in pitch
and roll for most CG loadings.

Mark Boyd

Let's see...

* must be capable of spinning : Yes
* Robust for club use : Yes
* Easily repaired : Yes
* Safety cell : Yes
* Good visibility : No
* light, good handling : No
* Spacious cockpit : No
* Wide pilot weight limits (100 to 300 pounds!) : Yes
* capable of sensible cross country flights : No
and finally must look good. : No No No!

So the 33 only scores 5/10. Not too impressive. Back to the aluminum
recycling factory.

NigelPocock wrote:

There has been a lot of discussion in our club recently about what makes the
ideal training glider

Reading through your list, I would say that you're looking for a DG
1000. It fulfills all points except the 300 lb requirement, but I guess
you could arrange even this with the manufactorer, as I doubt the 110 kg
certification limit is the structural limit. It isn't cheap, though.

* must be capable of spinning

I fear this will start a whole discussion on its own, as always, when
this point comes up. Personally, I think a primary two-seater trainer
not only should be capable of spinning, but it should be *prone* to do
so, so the student learns early (and with an instructor in the back
seat!) how to avoid and handle spins. Much better than getting checked
out in an ASK 21 and then being surprized by the first spin in a single
seater, as I did. But there are exactly two opinions on this.

Stefan

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:46:22 +0200, Stefan "stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch
wrote:

I fear this will start a whole discussion on its own, as always, when
this point comes up. Personally, I think a primary two-seater trainer
not only should be capable of spinning, but it should be *prone* to do
so, so the student learns early (and with an instructor in the back
seat!) how to avoid and handle spins. Much better than getting checked
out in an ASK 21 and then being surprized by the first spin in a single
seater, as I did. But there are exactly two opinions on this.

You mean that if the student pilot makes a mistake on one of his early
solo flights, he SHOULD spin in?

Pretty hard way to teach him not to stall that glider at low altitude.
isn't it?



Bye
Andreas

Re Puchacz wheels

A number of UK clubs have modified the wheel brake
and put a Tost drum brake on. These are quite effective
and are not as sensitive as the original brake mechanism.

As for spinning. I have carried out many stalling and
spinning training flights in K7's K13's and K21's and
in the Puchacz.

The stall and spin characteristics of the Puchacz are
predictable and can be taught properly, yes the Pucjacz
will both spin and recover on demand. You know this
with the Puchacz and fly it accordingly. With other
types, such as those others above, you have to force
the actions especially with heavier pilots. This instills
in pilots that they are difficult to spin, until it
goes wrong.

I know pilots who have flown gliders that 'do not spin'
--- and then the machine has spun and they have been
caught out.

The more I fly these gliders (Puchacz) the more I realise
what a superb training glider they are. They do everything
that is asked of them on demand.

Dave Martin
Not a Puchacz salesman, just a fan.