Why does PW-5 get no respect?

Newbie here. I ran across a joke that said the market value for a
used PW-5 was based entirely on what the instruments and trailer were
worth. It appears this issue was beaten to death at one time, but I'm
curious for a paragraph or two explanation of why the ship gets no
respect.

Thanks

The PW5 was the apparent winner of a design competition to create a "single
design" cross country contest glider. And still be usable for the club
(affordable) and beginning (novice) pilot. It came out at about 30 or 31 to
1 L/d. Not truly blistering performance. Others in the competition were the
Blanik L-33 Solo, Russia AC4 (and I think there was another )

There are many very good used gliders on the market for under $30K with a
much higher (41/1 L/d) performance. Most people look to "trade up" to
something with higher performance.

If they learned in a SGS 2-33, then yes, a PW-5 is a "trade up", but if they
learned in ASK-21 or Grob 103s, then the PW-5 is a drastic trade down in
performance. Better to go by the trusty Libelle 201 at 36/1 L/d.

All are good aircraft for what the owner pilot may want to achieve, the L-33
is "all metal" and can sit out in the weather. All are "easy assembly" ,
easy to fly, and good gliders to learn the art of soaring and cross country.
Getting that student more than one thermal away from home airport. But for
the money.. it's hard to compete with 42/1 L/d in the used market.

JMHO
BT

"ISoar" wrote in message
om...
Newbie here. I ran across a joke that said the market value for a
used PW-5 was based entirely on what the instruments and trailer were
worth. It appears this issue was beaten to death at one time, but I'm
curious for a paragraph or two explanation of why the ship gets no
respect.

Thanks

It seems that in the sport of gliding there are the
poke around the field folks (who don't fly that much)
and the fly 500k+ folks (some of whom fly
a ton every year) and not too many in between.

The PW-5 is a bit advanced for the 5 hr/year poker,
and really a poor penetrator for most 500km+, 100+hr/yr
pilots.

So it finds a kind of lonely niche in hard-core
one-type record/competition pilots, or pilots
who live at a gliderport which favors its kind
of lift (lots of little lift every few miles).

Midlothian Texas maybe, but the rest of the hard
core glider pilots prefer a PIK-20 or ASW-20 or better
for the penetration. The PW-5 draggy double wheels
don't help a lot for speed...

So the serious X-C pilots guffaw at it. Personally
I would dread a 500k in it just because it would
take over 8 hours. Just planning
and trying to fly a half-dozen 300k flights,
leaving at 2PM means I might not make
it back for Letterman ;-( .

I don't have a clue how those 1-26 pilots did
300k, much less 500k. 10+ hours in
a freakin' glider? Jeez...

There really is something to be said for flying
a super-fast glider in super-strong lift all the
time. This is why some of these pilots live near
Reno, CA :-P

Reno is in Nevada dumbass...
Thats NV.... not CA...
That means less taxes.... unlike CA...

Al


There really is something to be said for flying
a super-fast glider in super-strong lift all the
time. This is why some of these pilots live near
Reno, CA :-P

I wonder what the L/D and penetration would be like
if the PW-5 AND the L-33 had retractable gear?
Would the polar look more like the Pegasus 101?
Anyone have a Pegasus 101 club (fixed gear) polar
we can look at?

Mark


P.S. In a previous post I'd mentioned vibration on
tow at about 80 knots in the PW-5. After reading

www.ssa.org/Johnson/85-1997-04.pdf

it seems this is from the elevator, and "taping up
the relatively large openings on both the
top and bottom surface of the elevator control attach
location, and at the base of the rudder" makes the
elevator vibration problem go away.
Also in the article take a look at
the "wing root air seals," very interesting...
I wonder how many other gliders have these
similar big air holes in the fuse-to-wing.

I don't know about the fixed gear Pegasus, though I owned and loved a
101A for several years. The Russia, another entry in the World Class
design competition, comes in two fixed gear variants and with a
retracting main wheel. IIRC the retract brings the best L/D up to about
35 from about 31 for the fixed version.

Al
Now with a Discus B

Mark James Boyd wrote:

I wonder what the L/D and penetration would be like
if the PW-5 AND the L-33 had retractable gear?
Would the polar look more like the Pegasus 101?
Anyone have a Pegasus 101 club (fixed gear) polar
we can look at?

Mark


P.S. In a previous post I'd mentioned vibration on
tow at about 80 knots in the PW-5. After reading

www.ssa.org/Johnson/85-1997-04.pdf

it seems this is from the elevator, and "taping up
the relatively large openings on both the
top and bottom surface of the elevator control attach
location, and at the base of the rudder" makes the
elevator vibration problem go away.
Also in the article take a look at
the "wing root air seals," very interesting...
I wonder how many other gliders have these
similar big air holes in the fuse-to-wing.

On 20 Nov 2003 13:31:02 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:

I wonder what the L/D and penetration would be like
if the PW-5 AND the L-33 had retractable gear?
Would the polar look more like the Pegasus 101?
Anyone have a Pegasus 101 club (fixed gear) polar
we can look at?

Performance difference two points of max. L/D.

it seems this is from the elevator, and "taping up
the relatively large openings on both the
top and bottom surface of the elevator control attach
location, and at the base of the rudder" makes the
elevator vibration problem go away.
Also in the article take a look at
the "wing root air seals," very interesting...
I wonder how many other gliders have these
similar big air holes in the fuse-to-wing.

sarcasm on
None that was designed after 1965.
sarcasm off

It's not only the performance that makes the PW-5 hard to sell. As a
Ka-8 replacement the performance does not matter... but it were the
many sub-standard technical solutions on the (early) PW-5 that made me
(and all of my club members) laugh.




Bye
Andreas

Why are you worried about penetration into wind when its obvious that you
would get lost the moment you got out of sight of the airfield trying to
find your way to Reno CA.

The L33 has a wing section like a size 9 slipper compared to the 101 and as
such the 101 fixed gear or even retractable with the gear down would blow
the doors off the L33.

Al
www.gliderforum.com - Home of the real soaring pilots for real soaring
discussion club.



"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fbd3296$1@darkstar...
I wonder what the L/D and penetration would be like
if the PW-5 AND the L-33 had retractable gear?
Would the polar look more like the Pegasus 101?
Anyone have a Pegasus 101 club (fixed gear) polar
we can look at?

Mark


P.S. In a previous post I'd mentioned vibration on
tow at about 80 knots in the PW-5. After reading

www.ssa.org/Johnson/85-1997-04.pdf

it seems this is from the elevator, and "taping up
the relatively large openings on both the
top and bottom surface of the elevator control attach
location, and at the base of the rudder" makes the
elevator vibration problem go away.
Also in the article take a look at
the "wing root air seals," very interesting...
I wonder how many other gliders have these
similar big air holes in the fuse-to-wing.

It has been beaten to death and it is kind of sad that that may have damaged
the reputation of the glider. The idea is that a one design class glider
tests the pilot, not the pocketbook. Ultimate performance is not really
significant given this design mission, just performance enough to be fair,
which the PW-5 has.

Many apparently think L/D per dollar is important. If you are one of these,
the PW-5 is probably not for you. Look at things like LAK-17's and
ASW-12's. If all your buddies fly around in 40-1 ships and you want to fly
with them, it is probably not for you either. If beauty is a big factor,
and it kinda is for me, get an ASW-27.

If you want a nice flying glider that has performance for all badge work,
that will give you good experience and that will be competitive in contests
for years and years and years ahead and that is very suitable for record
work and that will not need expensive refinishing every few years and that
will never need the hassles of disposable ballast, you might give it a look.

After owning an obsolete high performance glider in the past I have been
very happy with the B1-PW-5 I got in a partnership a couple of years ago.
This one has all automatic hookups, it is incredibly easy to rig, with very
light wings, and simple to push around, single handed, on the ground. It
seems to be competitive in Sports Class and is cutting edge in PW-5 National
and World Competitions, although one must deal with the unpleasant reality
that bad results are not the fault of an obsolete glider, but to a personal
lack of skill. For record work it is hard to beat at all levels, state,
national and world records are available with equal opportunity for all.
This is not true of many of the gliders it is compared with.

If you need to make up for anatomical deficiences get a Corvette glider. If
you want flying fun and a level competitive playing field at a reasonable
price, you could do worse than a PW-5.

Larry Pardue PW-5 2I


"ISoar" wrote in message
om...
Newbie here. I ran across a joke that said the market value for a
used PW-5 was based entirely on what the instruments and trailer were
worth. It appears this issue was beaten to death at one time, but I'm
curious for a paragraph or two explanation of why the ship gets no
respect.

Thanks

A PW5 is a disaster of a glider that handles on par with a fat cow.
Don't even get me started on it's aesthetic looks.

On a more serious note - a lot of the aversion comes from it's couple
decades-old selection as the World Class glider. This was an extremely
poor choice. We could have had a widely available glider type for a
reasonable price and with a reasonable performance. Instead, we ended
up with an overpriced monster of a 1950's vintage performance. This in
essence killed the World Class.

(ISoar) wrote in message . com...
Newbie here. I ran across a joke that said the market value for a
used PW-5 was based entirely on what the instruments and trailer were
worth. It appears this issue was beaten to death at one time, but I'm
curious for a paragraph or two explanation of why the ship gets no
respect.

Thanks