Spinning (mis)concepts

1) "The spin is caused primarily by the position of the controls" - True,
but spins can also be cause by external factors.
2) "...Stick in the aft stop is the 'Stall' position" - Not exactly true. It
is true only with the wings level.
It is possible to fly regularly in a thermal with the stick against the full
aft position, as long as there is some angle of bank (15-20 degrees,
depending on the aircraft).
With the wings level, it will always produce a stall, that's what it is
designed to do.
Any competent flight instructor can demonstrate this if you're too affraid
to try it yourself.

3) "Always fly flatter close to the ground" - Now here is one that REALLY
bothers me.
This is probably the WORST misconception that insists in lingering around
hangar talk, internet talk and in other media with many "experts".
It should be replaced with "Always fly coordinated !" or "Fly with the right
amount of bank for the turn you want to make".
That's the simple, naked, honest truth.

Instilling fear of banking close to the ground is one of the worst things
you can do to your students.
I really hate people who insist on this one.
Gliders will not Stall or Spin due to bank angles. They will do so because
of angle of attack (pitch) not angle of bank.
Since most of us don't have an AOA indicator in our gliders, we use Speed as
an easy way to determine it.

Therefore, if you're maintaining the correct Speed in the traffic pattern,
you can (and SHOULD) bank the glider as appropriate for the turn. ALWAYS.
There is no exception.

A glider will not Stall/Spin from a coordinated turn with the proper speed.

It will do so always from an uncoordinated turn, usually with the Wings
close to level in a skidding turn and the stick aft.
Remember what I said about Wings level and the stick full aft.


Tom Knauff has some excellent material on the subject, published in many
different places, internet, SOARING Magazine, articles, etc.

Arnold,

I agree. It is quite clear, and frightening to be honest,
that there are many 'Experienced' people on this site
that need to seek remidial spin training immediately.
Before they fly again and certainly before they fly
with students!

The misinformation on this site, particularly on this
subject (not to mention others) should be regarded
as criminal.

Owain

Arnold Pieper wrote:

Therefore, if you're maintaining the correct Speed in the traffic pattern,
you can (and SHOULD) bank the glider as appropriate for the turn. ALWAYS.
There is no exception.

A glider will not Stall/Spin from a coordinated turn with the proper speed.

It will do so always from an uncoordinated turn, usually with the Wings
close to level in a skidding turn and the stick aft.
Remember what I said about Wings level and the stick full aft.

How true! I have NEVER spun unintentionally in many years of practising
gliding doing that. Learning how to recover from spin will not save a
single life when 99% of accidents are close to the ground, either
landing or ridge flying. Learning to fly perfectly coordinated in ALL
circumstances will save lifes. Learning to keep speed and not stupidly
thermalling at slower speed than necessary will both increase climb rate
and save lifes. I can unfortunately say that i have seen instructors
learning to fly both too slow and with the rudder inside the turn,
on a ridge. This is criminal. The argument was that the aileron produces
more drag, that inverse effects suffice to bank the glider and other
bull****. I always wondered how the instructor didn't kill himself.
When i became more proficient, i discovered i could exploit small lift
exactly as efficiently flying a little faster and with correct banking
of the glider than he was doing with these dangerous techniques.


--

Michel TALON

Arnold Pieper wrote:
3) "Always fly flatter close to the ground" - Now here is one that REALLY
bothers me.
This is probably the WORST misconception that insists in lingering around
hangar talk, internet talk and in other media with many "experts".
It should be replaced with "Always fly coordinated !" or "Fly with the right
amount of bank for the turn you want to make".
That's the simple, naked, honest truth.

Instilling fear of banking close to the ground is one of the worst things
you can do to your students.
I really hate people who insist on this one.

I was actually taught from the beginning to always do well-banked
turns to base and final. The instructor explained, and demonstrated
how it is much more difficult to stall, or get close to the stall,
with a good bank on.

Then it may be a different matter if you are _just_ making it back
from a cross country and are so low that you might hit the ground
with the wingtip. Though I have never been there myself I have heard
about people making their final turn "with the rudder" in that
situation. I just wonder whether it would help at all, since there'd
be quite a penalty in height for the unclean flying involved.
(Apart from the fact that there will have been some fairly poor
airmanship involved to end up in that situation in the first place.)

CV

Ok, Here is to Mike and CV. Apparently both of you aren't listening.

If you make a turn with just the rudder and the wings level or almost level,
in other words, an uncoordinated turn, close to the ground, THAT will be
your last turn.

If you don't have height abouve the ground enough to perform a coordinated
turn, you SHOULD NOT be turning.

Here's the bottom-line : THAT level turn with the rudder-only, performed at
10 or 15ft height, is what produces the first part of a Spin and results in
gliders hitting the ground with the nose and wingtip first, usually
crippling the pilot.
My gosh, you guys don't seem to get it, or read enough accident reports.


"CV" wrote in message
...

Arnold Pieper wrote:
3) "Always fly flatter close to the ground" - Now here is one that
REALLY
bothers me.
This is probably the WORST misconception that insists in lingering
around
hangar talk, internet talk and in other media with many "experts".
It should be replaced with "Always fly coordinated !" or "Fly with the
right
amount of bank for the turn you want to make".
That's the simple, naked, honest truth.

Instilling fear of banking close to the ground is one of the worst
things
you can do to your students.
I really hate people who insist on this one.

I was actually taught from the beginning to always do well-banked
turns to base and final. The instructor explained, and demonstrated
how it is much more difficult to stall, or get close to the stall,
with a good bank on.

Then it may be a different matter if you are _just_ making it back
from a cross country and are so low that you might hit the ground
with the wingtip. Though I have never been there myself I have heard
about people making their final turn "with the rudder" in that
situation. I just wonder whether it would help at all, since there'd
be quite a penalty in height for the unclean flying involved.
(Apart from the fact that there will have been some fairly poor
airmanship involved to end up in that situation in the first place.)

CV

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:06:15 UTC, "Arnold Pieper"
wrote:

: Ok, Here is to Mike and CV. Apparently both of you aren't listening.
:
: If you make a turn with just the rudder and the wings level or almost level,
: in other words, an uncoordinated turn, close to the ground, THAT will be
: your last turn.

CV was reporting this as something that other people claim to do. And
we all know, from the accident statistics, just how safe competition
pilots are, don't we?

In

Arnold Pieper wrote:
Ok, Here is to Mike and CV. Apparently both of you aren't listening.

Hmmm. Surprising reaction, considering my post mainly supported your
views.

If you make a turn with just the rudder and the wings level or almost level,
in other words, an uncoordinated turn, close to the ground, THAT will be
your last turn.

If you don't have height abouve the ground enough to perform a coordinated
turn, you SHOULD NOT be turning.

Here's the bottom-line : THAT level turn with the rudder-only, performed at
10 or 15ft height, is what produces the first part of a Spin and results in
gliders hitting the ground with the nose and wingtip first, usually
crippling the pilot.
My gosh, you guys don't seem to get it, or read enough accident reports.

As Ian already pointed out I reported this as something that other
people claim to do, and I was in fact questioning it.

On the other hand your claim that any uncoordinated flying
automatically leads to a spin is just ridiculous. It rather
detracts from your credibility and otherwise sensible views.

And I must say, in all kindness, that you would benefit by trying
not to be so pompous. These discussions are much more interesting
and helpful if we can air our views and experiences on an equal
footing rather someone dishing out "bottom-lines" and "simple,
naked, honest truths" from their preacher's pulpit.

Cheers CV

3) "Always fly flatter close to the ground" - Now here is one that REALLY
bothers me.
This is probably the WORST misconception that insists in lingering around
hangar talk, internet talk and in other media with many "experts".
It should be replaced with "Always fly coordinated !" or "Fly with the right
amount of bank for the turn you want to make".
That's the simple, naked, honest truth.

Instilling fear of banking close to the ground is one of the worst things
you can do to your students.
I really hate people who insist on this one.
Gliders will not Stall or Spin due to bank angles. They will do so because
of angle of attack (pitch) not angle of bank.
Since most of us don't have an AOA indicator in our gliders, we use Speed as
an easy way to determine it.

OTOH if you do a well banked turn close to the ground and there is a
steepish wind gradient, its liable to be the last one you ever do.



--
Mike Lindsay

Mike Lindsay wrote:

OTOH if you do a well banked turn close to the ground and there is a
steepish wind gradient, its liable to be the last one you ever do.


Lack of speed?
I have flewn places with very steep wind gradient and i am still here.
Number one assurance against problems is keeping speed, and rather more
speed than not enough when there is strong wind.




--

Michel TALON

I know at least one pilot who was saved from serious
injury or death by his ability to quickly recover from
an incipient spin at very low altitude (probably below
50 m). I watched it happen.

I am probably also in that category myself, having
once unintentionally started to spin a LS7 when flying
a very turbulent thermal close to a mountainside near
Orcierres in the Alps, and being saved by quick recovery
action.

As we are not perfect, we should try to have two (or
more) lines of defence whenever possible:
First line of defence: Have sufficient airspeed and
fly coordinated when you are low.
Second line of defence: Be able to quickly recognise
and recover from an incipient spin.

Regarding the value of training fully developed spins:
I think the main benefits are to (hopefully) eliminate
the panic effect in a spin, and also to learn how to
avoid overspeeding or overstressing the sailplane in
the pull-out phase. The pull-out is normally very different
after a fully developed spin vs. after the typical
quarter-turn incipient spin.

Geir

At 10:12 27 January 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Arnold Pieper wrote:

Therefore, if you're maintaining the correct Speed
in the traffic pattern,
you can (and SHOULD) bank the glider as appropriate
for the turn. ALWAYS.
There is no exception.

A glider will not Stall/Spin from a coordinated turn
with the proper speed.

It will do so always from an uncoordinated turn, usually
with the Wings
close to level in a skidding turn and the stick aft.
Remember what I said about Wings level and the stick
full aft.

How true! I have NEVER spun unintentionally in many
years of practising
gliding doing that. Learning how to recover from spin
will not save a
single life when 99% of accidents are close to the
ground, either
landing or ridge flying. Learning to fly perfectly
coordinated in ALL
circumstances will save lifes. Learning to keep speed
and not stupidly
thermalling at slower speed than necessary will both
increase climb rate
and save lifes. I can unfortunately say that i have
seen instructors
learning to fly both too slow and with the rudder inside
the turn,
on a ridge. This is criminal. The argument was that
the aileron produces
more drag, that inverse effects suffice to bank the
glider and other
bull****. I always wondered how the instructor didn't
kill himself.
When i became more proficient, i discovered i could
exploit small lift
exactly as efficiently flying a little faster and with
correct banking
of the glider than he was doing with these dangerous
techniques.


--

Michel TALON