90 Degree turn while slipping

I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
will be in a 2-33.

Thanks

At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make
a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,

Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
of salt when you read posts about making you turns
with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?
This is where spins develop from, because in the event
of you stalling, the likelyhood of you surviving when
low, as you would be on your base turn, or final turn
are very slim. Get into the habit of flying turns in
a coordinated manner right from the start, at all times.

I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture
the side
effects from doing that.

There are no side effects of performing a correct well
banked coordinated turn.

If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

If you fly in a coordinated manner you dont have to
think ahead of the plane


Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning
in this mode?

any aileron input will produce adverse yaw

Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything
about it,

if you were flying coordinated turns it would not be
something you have to factor in.

but enquiring minds want to know.

absolutely. problem though with this news group, which
is ment to be a gliding news group, there are to many
power pilots preaching power techniques!

The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll
input. This
will be in a 2-33.

there will always be an attitude change in any turn.


Thanks

Pete Zeugma wrote in message ...
At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make
a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,

Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
of salt when you read posts about making you turns
with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?

It's a slip, NOT a skid. I'm not using excessive amounts of ruddre,
but just the opposite - essentially too little rudder to the extreme.

I most often do one of these when getting into a 2-33 after flying
glass with effective spoilers for a while.

When on base leg, I realize my normal pattern altitude is too high for
the little bit of sink the spoilers of the 2-33 provide. So as I turn
base to final, I apply rudder away from the direction of turn and lots
of aileron into the turn. Viola - a huge amount of altitude lost in
the turn and as I line up on final, the contols get 'normalized' again
and spoilers back to 2/3 or so for a normal flare and touchdown. I
usually get the angles figured out for the 2-33 after a couple flights
and the slip goes away, unless of course, I want to have some fun.
Like slipping down to the flare, flare aggressively, do a high AOA
touchdown (almost 2 point) and get stopped within 1-200' of touchdown


I've even done this in my ASW-20B with full flaps and spoilers. Set
up a landing while a gust front os blowing about 50 knots down the
runway. So the pattern is high with a planned turn to final at 5-600'
AGL pretty much over the numbers. About half way down base leg, the
wind quits. Now I'm waaaay high. So I pull out full flaps, full
spoilers, and do the slipping turn. I slipped it all the way down to
about 50', and touched down almost exaclty where I'd planned when the
wind was still blowing.

Tom
ASH-26E

ISoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.)

Speaking for myself, when I say I'm making a "slipping turn from base to
final", what I really mean is that I start off in a coordinated
moderately banked turn. When the nose is still pointing something like
20 to 30 degrees away from the runway, I slowly start feeding in
opposite rudder to transition into a forward slip. Adjustments are
made in yaw, pitch, and roll, to maintain a stable forward slip on the
runway heading until any excess altitude is eliminated, at which point I
transition to straight flight and a normal landing.

If this is something you haven't done, you definitely should get an
instructor to show you how, this is not something you want to be
learning on your own...

Marc

Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Marc Ramsey" a écrit dans le message de
. com...
ISoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.)

Speaking for myself, when I say I'm making a "slipping turn from base to
final", what I really mean is that I start off in a coordinated
moderately banked turn. When the nose is still pointing something like
20 to 30 degrees away from the runway, I slowly start feeding in
opposite rudder to transition into a forward slip. Adjustments are
made in yaw, pitch, and roll, to maintain a stable forward slip on the
runway heading until any excess altitude is eliminated, at which point I
transition to straight flight and a normal landing.

If this is something you haven't done, you definitely should get an
instructor to show you how, this is not something you want to be
learning on your own...

Marc

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.

An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
being done with an ASH-25.

Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever...



Bye
Andreas

The main difference is when you stop the sideslip with these new
composite planes. Higher speed required to maintain safe sideslip
position but these planes has no same drag in normal glide position as a
KA7 has. So expect to run much longer

/Janos

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:


Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.


An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
being done with an ASH-25.

Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever...



Bye
Andreas

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 16:21:14 +0100, Janos Bauer
wrote:

The main difference is when you stop the sideslip with these new
composite planes. Higher speed required to maintain safe sideslip
position but these planes has no same drag in normal glide position as a
KA7 has. So expect to run much longer

This is the problematic point here.
It is possible to keep the sideslip even during the flare (to increase
drag), but the lower wing tip is very close to the ground then... not
a game for a beginner.

Frankly spoken, I have no idea how a "normal" pilot without lots of
sideslip experience is going to land a glass glider safely without the
use of aibrakes.


Bye
Andreas

Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part
of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.

An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
being done with an ASH-25.

Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever...



Bye
Andreas

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:13:39 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

Never mention glider aerobatics in my presence anymore...


Bye
Andreas