Has Standard Class design peaked?

Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?

Mark Brown wrote:
Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here

Well I guess it means that pilots will have to learn some decent amount of
skill instead buying a better glider to improve their results. Of course
there's always the latest version of the PDA flight director software to
tell you when to push/pull/bank/go there/at that speed/or whatever, etc...

One pilot over here followed his PDA during a competition final glide even
to the point of hitting a tree. The logical answer to that one was that he
hadn't programmed the location of the tree into the map drawing software.

Rgds,

Derrick.

Mark Brown wrote:

Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?


Yes?
The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.....
Breaking the Mold! Thank you , thank you. :-)
Also, technology in sail making can custom weave a sail on a mold thread
by thread (more or less). Could a glider fusalage be spun out on a
mold? dunno. Also, the new Eclipse mini-busjet uses a high tech
welding technique for its aluminum skin, eliminating rivets (or at least
a lot of them).
These new fabrication techniques can reduce limitations set by materials
and weight (but probably not cost. )-: ). If a thinner airfoil is
better, but couldn't be constructed using old techniques, new materials
can make it possible. In some cases perhaps construction could be made
less expensive. Haven't heard of any big advances in making the smooth
surface required by laminar flow, without lots of sanding, but only a
ludite would tell you it can't be done. Not big incentive on the part
of the manufacturers to change. Maybe the Duckhawk or Diana II will
start shaking the old men awake :-)

Shawn

"Shawn Curry" wrote in message
...
Mark Brown wrote:

Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?


Yes?
The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.
Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable if
damaged?

Breaking the Mold! Thank you , thank you. :-)
Also, technology in sail making can custom weave a sail on a mold thread
by thread (more or less). Could a glider fusalage be spun out on a
mold? dunno. Also, the new Eclipse mini-busjet uses a high tech
welding technique for its aluminum skin, eliminating rivets (or at least
a lot of them).
Ever seen Rutan's Boomerang? Been done, in Montrose IIRC. Filament winding
composite structures like a glider fuselage would likely take several
uninterrupted hours, given the nature of the method. Can't stop once you've
started. But it's certainly doable.

These new fabrication techniques can reduce limitations set by materials
and weight (but probably not cost. )-: ). If a thinner airfoil is
better, but couldn't be constructed using old techniques, new materials
can make it possible. In some cases perhaps construction could be made
less expensive. Haven't heard of any big advances in making the smooth
surface required by laminar flow, without lots of sanding, but only a
ludite would tell you it can't be done. Not big incentive on the part
of the manufacturers to change. Maybe the Duckhawk or Diana II will
start shaking the old men awake :-)

At the Diana 2 talk at the SSA convention, the question was asked that if
someone damaged the structure of a Diana 2 wing, could it be repaired at one
of the regular repair stations. The reply was no, with the caveat that if
the glider is very successful in sales, such a repair service could be made
available in North America, perhaps. The potential impact on insurance
coverage might be substantial. Some of the research behind the Diana 2 has
involved the ideas, methods, and review of some of those old men BTW.

Maybe the Cole's can comment on the Sparrowhawk's repairability.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.

Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable if
damaged?

According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
F.L. Whiteley wrote:
The way (most) composite sailplanes are made, wet hand layup of cloth,
is ancient history in composite fabrication. Some newer material
technology like the pre-preg cloth construction of the Sparrowhawk (and
Duckhawk I assume?) and the carbon rod spar of the Genesis are a couple
examples of how new designers are wait.......here it comes.

Anyone care to comment if these light pre-preg composites are repairable
if
damaged?

According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.

--
That's partly the point, Eric.

"Ring, ring, I've dinged my wing."
"No problem, we have a new wing, what color?"
"Ka-ching!"

Old style $3000 repair is suddenly an $8000 replacement (thinking
Sparrowhawk price arena). Parts are cooked in an autoclave IIRC. Just
scarfing these would seem exceedingly difficult. As far as repairing
structural damage to a filament wound structure, I think that's probably not
very likely other than for minor issues. Doesn't mean methods can't be
developed, but I don't think they are fielded yet. I know folks who've done
outstanding work with wet layup GRP and CF repairs, arriving within ounces
of the original weight with essentially totaled gliders, but it's not quite
the same thing and probably ends somewhere between patching a hole and a
structural splice.

I supposed we'll find out before long.

Frank

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

damaged?

According to Greg Cole, it's not a problem. He went into a bit of detail
with me a few months ago, but I don't remember them well enough to pass
it on. Wet layup repairs can be made up to a point, as I recall. Of
course, the factory should be contacted first for the proper methods.
Every composite component is laid up in a mold and assemblies are done
in jigs, so you could buy replacement parts, even a wing, and have it fit.

--

That's partly the point, Eric.

"Ring, ring, I've dinged my wing."
"No problem, we have a new wing, what color?"
"Ka-ching!"

Well, trash a wing on a German glider, and try to buy a replacement from
the factory. I wasn't suggesting you have to replace a "dinged" wing,
as they are easily (according to Greg) repaired. Perhaps I wasn't clear,
so let's try again: not everything can be repaired, or the repair is so
involved, it's better/cheaper to replace it (broken spars often fall in
this category). If so, you aren't out of luck, because you can buy a
replacement.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Mark Brown" wrote in message
...
Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?


What makes you think it has ?

Obviously not the same reasons that make you think
it hasnt ;-)!

At 18:54 02 May 2004, Arnie wrote:
'Mark Brown' wrote in message
...
Ok im really bored and I thoguht i would open a can
of worms..has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?


What makes you think it has ?

.has Standard Class Design reached a plateau?
and if so where do we go from here?

While othewrs had argue the merits of various building methods these do not
directly offer any performance improvments. Given the size of most of the
production runs I would look at vacuum infusion for wetting out the cloth.

Aerodynamically the place to go is reflexed airfoils. Note: I did not say
flying wings. Reflexed airfoils can operate quite well on tailed gliders and
this configuration offers many pratical benifits.

Robert Mudd