Accelerated spin in unexpected direction at low altitude

There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17.. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Thanks for many interesting comments.

Uh, well, OK.....I found your safety thread to be highly technical and very advance....for me.
I’m afraid at my advance age I have shifted to don’t dick it up mode realizing my sharpest days have passed even with 37K+ hours.
Your last two sentences was all you needed to get a discussion going feeding in the other data as needed.
Plus, you post in the peak of a few crashes that had most saturated with uncontrollable flight.
Start off with a glider joke like “what did the pilot say to his wife when she showed up naked to retrieve him?�

R

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 8:03:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan.. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Thank you for this. The only time I have been in an over the top spin was in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this particular 2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do it from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use any more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top spin entry from a slip.

Hmmm. I had not heard that a glider would not stall while in a slip, only that if it did, it would spin in the opposite direction, presumably giving you slightly more time to recover. I regularly slip my ASW 24 on final and have always been careful to keep the speed up, even though I suspect the ASI is not as reliable as the slip angle increases.

I recall that at least one ASW 12 pilot from the old days had two ASIs installed, one for normal flying and the other with a pitot tube bent out at an angle that he used to monitor airspeed when in the dramatic slip that experienced '12 drivers used to get that ship down in a hurry sans tail chute.

Chip Bearden

Thank you for this. The only time I have been in an over the top spin
was
in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this
particular
2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do
it
from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft
will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use
any
more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top
spin entry from a slip.

In the mid 90's while high in Minden wave and test flying a Puchacz
for
a potential club purchase. An investigation of the gliders slip and
slipping
turn characteristics. During a deep left slipping turn the glider
abruptly
broke over the raised right wing into an aggressive right spin. Onlookers
said it appeared very much like a left slipping turn into a right snap
roll
spin entry. Considering that I was at about 1g at the time so there was no
g-loading associated with this event. My assumption was that the raised
wing was blanked and stalled by the associated fuselage/wing turbulence.
I did not attempt to repeat the incident in that or any other Puchacz, so
I
have no idea if that characteristic was typical for make and model or
limited
to that particular glider. It's still remains the most aggressive spin
entry I
have ever experienced in a glider or airplane.
I should add that the club did go ahead and ordered a new Puchacz.
Unfortunately a number of years later during a check flight with the clubs
primary instructor/club president and a new club member/airline pilot,
were
both killed when their Puchacz spun to impact.

On 7/2/2018 11:28 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Snip... The only time I have been in an over the top spin was
in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this particular
2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do it
from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft
will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use any
more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top
spin entry from a slip.

If this was not N232PC, for a long time (until the early '90s?), my club had
a(nother?) 2-32 that would do the same thing...a quite eye-pleasing orange and
yellow as I recall. Memory says it was eventually sold to the (last)
Calistoga operation.

It also routinely/'abruptly' dropped the left wing whenever stalled.
Amazingly(?) - so far as I was ever aware - it was never damaged as a result
of either trait during the club's ownership. Yes, every club pilot checked out
in it was thoroughly briefed/exposed-to both 'quirks' prior to solo signoff...

Bob W.

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Bob, N232PC is my N number for a ASW27

Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW 27 formerly Paul Cordell's hence the PC

I'm not in favor of making a fetish of full spin and recovery. I worry that emphasis on holding the stick all the way back through a full turn builds the worst possible muscle memory.

Yes,it's worthwhile demonstrating at altitude, but the ground will most likely get in the way of a recovery from a spin out of a turn to base or final. That's where we lose friends. Shears and other nastinesses lurk at low level.

I put a higher priority on recognition of and immediate recovery from an incipient spin.

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:08:21 -0700, George Haeh wrote:

I'm not in favor of making a fetish of full spin and recovery. I worry
that emphasis on holding the stick all the way back through a full turn
builds the worst possible muscle memory.

Yes,it's worthwhile demonstrating at altitude, but the ground will most
likely get in the way of a recovery from a spin out of a turn to base or
final. That's where we lose friends. Shears and other nastinesses lurk
at low level.

I put a higher priority on recognition of and immediate recovery from an
incipient spin.

With respect, accelerated spin entry is a bit different because one
moment you aren't spinning and then suddenly you are. I've had one or two
'interesting' departures:

- While I had an early ASW-20 it departed twice without warning from a
thermalling turn - at least I didn't notice any buffet, etc and wasn't
all that slow (45 kts, 40 degree bank), but both times I'd recovered
within 1/4 of a turn, admittedly 35kts faster and 300 ft lower. These
were both into-turn spins.

- Puchacz 1. In one of the spin practice flights our club insists on at
the start of the season and with plenty of height, I tried a recovery
method that was supposed to minimise height loss. That didn't work: all
that happened was that the Puch did a snap reversal of spin
direction. Not a problem: I saw the reversal happen (remarkably
fast), swapped the applied rudder and came out of the spin without any
problems.

- Puchacz 2. Another annual spin practice. This time the instructor
promised me a treat if we were still high after completing the stall
and spin exercise. We were, so he had me set up a thermal-like turn
(this was a cold, overcast day), at 45kts and a 40 degree bank. Then,
he had me snap the stick back centrally and hold it. The Puch pitched
up, did half a wing-over and spun off the top - IIRC it was an
over-the-top entry, but regardless it was immediately spinning - no
hesitation! Again no problem: I recovered within half a turn at most.


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Gregorie | gregorie dot org