pure gliders with ads b?

Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

I've installed a TT22, TN70 and the Peregrine switch in my Stemme, done
the 337 and the test flight, and just a couple of weeks ago gotten the
rebate check from the FAA.Â* Though she's a self launcher, I operate the
Stemme as a pure glider except when repositioning for a safari or other
gathering.

I have measured the current draw with a Watts Up power meter
https://www.amazon.com/RC-Electronics-Inc-Watts-Analyzer/dp/B001B6N2WK/ref=asc_df_B001B6N2WK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309806250188&hvpos=1o1&hvne tw=g&hvrand=10101014829027116015&hvpone=&hvptwo=&h vqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030451 &hvtargid=pla-571652175348&psc=1
with everything running and it's at or below 2.6 amps.Â* Add another amp
or so when the transmitter is keyed.Â* The Stemme has a 38 Ah main
battery and a 10 Ah aux battery with solar cells to help with the load.Â*
During setup, I configured the system as ADS-B Out and In though I don't
have a permanently installed ADS-B In system.Â* My ClearNav II presents
ADS-B traffic and, when I want to, I can carry an Android device running
Avare which shows the TFRs, weather, traffic, etc.Â* I'm very happy with
the result.

On 1/2/2019 6:26 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 5:26:42 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Besides Dan, there are one or two more TN70 installs in the works, many more TN72 (mostly experimental), *nothing* is hard here.

Read carefully (you and/or your A&P and you are not an A&P) and follow FAA policy AFS-360_2016-03-02 and the installation instructions and STC instructions. Have your A&P (does not need to be an IA) do the the minimal required work there and no more.

All Trig glider dealers should be able to get you the Trig/Peregrine STC with permission to use (required by AFS-360_2016-03-02 to justify the pairing of the TT22 and TN72, and only used to do that in this case, the STC is not being used as a basis for a major alteration... and so that your glider is not on the AML for that STC is irrelevant).

Oops... I meant to write “if you are not an A&P�...

I attended the the AOPA Fly-in at Santa Fe this year and spoke to both the Trig representative and some knowledgeable FAA folks about the ADS-B options for certified gliders vs. those with Experimental classification. The interpretation that the Trig 22 with the TN-70 is the only legal 2020 Compliant option for certified gliders came into question. After the FAA rep closely read the requirements, I was advised that the much cheaper TN-72 might be a viable choice. His interpretation indicated that a certified aircraft that is not absolutely required to install ADS-B Out (read: Glider), and does NOT have a generator fed electrical system would be considered legal with the TN-72.

Since this is the only time I have received this answer, and all other documentation I have seen indicates that an installation in a certified glider requires the more expensive TN-70. I would appreciate other input. Darryl Ramm seems to be the "go to guy" for ADS-B information. Your thoughts?

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 6:54:47 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I attended the the AOPA Fly-in at Santa Fe this year and spoke to both the Trig representative and some knowledgeable FAA folks about the ADS-B options for certified gliders vs. those with Experimental classification. The interpretation that the Trig 22 with the TN-70 is the only legal 2020 Compliant option for certified gliders came into question. After the FAA rep closely read the requirements, I was advised that the much cheaper TN-72 might be a viable choice. His interpretation indicated that a certified aircraft that is not absolutely required to install ADS-B Out (read: Glider), and does NOT have a generator fed electrical system would be considered legal with the TN-72.

Since this is the only time I have received this answer, and all other documentation I have seen indicates that an installation in a certified glider requires the more expensive TN-70. I would appreciate other input. Darryl Ramm seems to be the "go to guy" for ADS-B information. Your thoughts?

Please ask the folks telling you this how you get that opinion in writing and in a way usable by say an A&P to know they are OK. This is not something that a local FSDO is likely to make with, they pretty much focus on following AFS-360_2016-03-02. Once well outside that this is stuff for others.

So the argument goes... As PIC I'm not required to comply with 14 CFR 91.225 so 14 CFR 91.227 does not apply to me and so I don't need to follow AFS-360_2016-03-02... so I'll just go ahead. and install a SIL=3 output TN72 in a glider. My A&P does not need to file the ADS-B Out install 337 because that's a AFS-360_2016-03-02 policy requirement. And they don't have to follow that policy.... well if you can find an A&P who agrees with that... go for it. I can see the placard now "The ADS-B Out install in this aircraft does not comply with 14 CFR 91.217..." The FAA ADS-B monitoring system will likely quickly catch that there was no '337 filed for that SIL=3 install in a type certified aircraft and they'll want to know where/who did the install. So may be the quickest way fo find out the FAA's interpretation of all this :-) OK maybe not the wisest thing to do.

I'm not necessarily a believer that legal interpretation is correct, and this has never got to a court or FAA Office of the Chief Counsel for an opinion. A request to the Office of Chief Counsel for an interpretation would be the next step for an organization that cared about this. Even if the FAA agreed, not everybody will want to waive full 91.225 flight privileges. Some glider owners do want flight privileges in Class A, close above Class C or lowered Class B ceilings (e.g. Seattle), etc.

What is clear today in a type certified glider is the TN70+TT22 install with full AFS-360_2016-03-02 compliance get you everything. For other uses the TN72 SIL=1/TABS install is doable, but with reduced functionality. Part of the simple (non-legal) justification of the legitimacy of a TABS install, e.g. when explaining to FSDO staff, is the argument that the FAA created the whole TABS TSO-C199 approval to exactly allow this, and it's all simply orthogonal to 91.225 and 91.227.

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 11:10:40 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 6:54:47 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I attended the the AOPA Fly-in at Santa Fe this year and spoke to both the Trig representative and some knowledgeable FAA folks about the ADS-B options for certified gliders vs. those with Experimental classification. The interpretation that the Trig 22 with the TN-70 is the only legal 2020 Compliant option for certified gliders came into question. After the FAA rep closely read the requirements, I was advised that the much cheaper TN-72 might be a viable choice. His interpretation indicated that a certified aircraft that is not absolutely required to install ADS-B Out (read: Glider), and does NOT have a generator fed electrical system would be considered legal with the TN-72.

Since this is the only time I have received this answer, and all other documentation I have seen indicates that an installation in a certified glider requires the more expensive TN-70. I would appreciate other input. Darryl Ramm seems to be the "go to guy" for ADS-B information. Your thoughts?

Please ask the folks telling you this how you get that opinion in writing and in a way usable by say an A&P to know they are OK. This is not something that a local FSDO is likely to make with, they pretty much focus on following AFS-360_2016-03-02. Once well outside that this is stuff for others.

So the argument goes... As PIC I'm not required to comply with 14 CFR 91.225 so 14 CFR 91.227 does not apply to me and so I don't need to follow AFS-360_2016-03-02... so I'll just go ahead. and install a SIL=3 output TN72 in a glider. My A&P does not need to file the ADS-B Out install 337 because that's a AFS-360_2016-03-02 policy requirement. And they don't have to follow that policy.... well if you can find an A&P who agrees with that... go for it. I can see the placard now "The ADS-B Out install in this aircraft does not comply with 14 CFR 91.217..." The FAA ADS-B monitoring system will likely quickly catch that there was no '337 filed for that SIL=3 install in a type certified aircraft and they'll want to know where/who did the install. So may be the quickest way fo find out the FAA's interpretation of all this :-) OK maybe not the wisest thing to do.

I'm not necessarily a believer that legal interpretation is correct, and this has never got to a court or FAA Office of the Chief Counsel for an opinion. A request to the Office of Chief Counsel for an interpretation would be the next step for an organization that cared about this. Even if the FAA agreed, not everybody will want to waive full 91.225 flight privileges. Some glider owners do want flight privileges in Class A, close above Class C or lowered Class B ceilings (e.g. Seattle), etc.

What is clear today in a type certified glider is the TN70+TT22 install with full AFS-360_2016-03-02 compliance get you everything. For other uses the TN72 SIL=1/TABS install is doable, but with reduced functionality. Part of the simple (non-legal) justification of the legitimacy of a TABS install, e.g. when explaining to FSDO staff, is the argument that the FAA created the whole TABS TSO-C199 approval to exactly allow this, and it's all simply orthogonal to 91.225 and 91.227.



For experimental gliders to fly in 'adsb airspace' after 2020, the Trig website guidance (below) is to use an uncertified puck gps antenna, TN72, and TT22 with SIL=3 setting. Also an 'airspeed switch', but they aren't clear if this must be hardware or can be the software setting of the TT22.

https://www.trig-avionics.com/librar...ust%202018.pdf

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Just some FYI. The installation diagram for the Peregrine airspeed switch depicts that it is in the 'low' or open condition when airborne (34 +/- 3 kts), and does not appear adjustable. The ASW-2 switch described from Aircraft Spruce ($47.50) is adjustable from 10-55kts; it is not intended for certified aircraft, which could be an issue for STC folks.

Charlie

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 10:50:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Just some FYI. The installation diagram for the Peregrine airspeed switch depicts that it is in the 'low' or open condition when airborne (34 +/- 3 kts), and does not appear adjustable. The ASW-2 switch described from Aircraft Spruce ($47.50) is adjustable from 10-55kts; it is not intended for certified aircraft, which could be an issue for STC folks.

Charlie



On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 10:50:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Just some FYI. The installation diagram for the Peregrine airspeed switch depicts that it is in the 'low' or open condition when airborne (34 +/- 3 kts), and does not appear adjustable. The ASW-2 switch described from Aircraft Spruce ($47.50) is adjustable from 10-55kts; it is not intended for certified aircraft, which could be an issue for STC folks.

Charlie

I am looking at the peregrine diagram right now, and done a continuity test, Charlie is correct, open circuit when pitot pressure above threshold, closed when no differential pressure present, so trig setting would be low when airborne.
Thanks,
Scott

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 5:26:40 PM UTC-6, Scott Williams wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 10:50:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Just some FYI. The installation diagram for the Peregrine airspeed switch depicts that it is in the 'low' or open condition when airborne (34 +/- 3 kts), and does not appear adjustable. The ASW-2 switch described from Aircraft Spruce ($47.50) is adjustable from 10-55kts; it is not intended for certified aircraft, which could be an issue for STC folks.

Charlie



On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 10:50:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
Has anyone actually installed a trig tt22, tn70, ta70 with a peregrine speed switch in a standard type certificated glider in the U.S.A and done the 337 and performance flight?

Don't ask me why, I'm a gadget enthusiast and have the above equipment, and don't fly anywhere near flarm equipped gliders.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Scott

Just some FYI. The installation diagram for the Peregrine airspeed switch depicts that it is in the 'low' or open condition when airborne (34 +/- 3 kts), and does not appear adjustable. The ASW-2 switch described from Aircraft Spruce ($47.50) is adjustable from 10-55kts; it is not intended for certified aircraft, which could be an issue for STC folks.

Charlie

I am looking at the peregrine diagram right now, and done a continuity test, Charlie is correct, open circuit when pitot pressure above threshold, closed when no differential pressure present, so trig setting would be low when airborne.
Thanks,
Scott

The point of my previous post was the circuit diagram on the peregrine box seems to show pitot pressure closing the circuit, testing shows the opposite, pitot pressure opens circuit.
Scott