SZD-56-2 Diana

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:56:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you
don't sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an
excellent glider, very comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper
than the LS4 still it was difficult to sell, to say the least.

I can't agree with you again...
Pegase was nothing else, as a copy of ASW-19, which was a good
construction. Pegase was not easy to sell, because it was not better
as the original. As Andreas Maurer noticed, it was sometimes even
worse...
The difficulty we have in our sweet France is, that government is
trying to push some companies (like Centrair) and this kind of
protection does not make entreprises stronger. It makes them even
weaker, and when the protection stops, they disappear. Centrair
stopped the production of gliders, because this company didn't have
good stuff, nor a good commercial behavior and was unable to sell
without special help (like a bulk order of the French Gliding
Federation) . Novaday they are subcontractors of Airbus, and I hope
they will perform better...
In the same time, a really excellent French construction, which is
Crystal, took 10 years to be certified ! Commercially speaking, it is
dead before to be born...
20 years earlier, you could see the same situation, when the French
administration pushed forward the construction of Wassmers Bijave
against the Breguets Choucas... with the same kind of result.

The real question, Michel, is : what is the stuff worth, what are its
advantages, or qualities, and not if it is German, French, Polish,
or... Lithuanian!
I fully agree with Andreas : only the competition can improve
products, and this statement concerns gliders as well...

Yurek wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:56:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you
don't sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an
excellent glider, very comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper
than the LS4 still it was difficult to sell, to say the least.

I can't agree with you again...
Pegase was nothing else, as a copy of ASW-19 (*), which was a good
construction. Pegase was not easy to sell, because it was not better
as the original. As Andreas Maurer noticed, it was sometimes even
worse...

The Pegase was ways better than the ASW19. It was as good as the LS4 if not
better. Your comments are exactly the demonstration of the sort of crap people
think of non German gliders, hence of the difficulty of selling them.

(*) This is patently false. The Pegase has original wings, which is by far the
most important part of a glider.

--
Michel Talon

The fact that the Pégase or ASW20F never sold in Germany are rather due to
the fact that Centrair went into licencing problems with Schleicher on the
number of ASW20 built under this lience, and that the Péegase fuselage as
well as the wing planiform are a 100% copy of the ASW20.

Pitty though because the Pégase is a very good glider - but with a company
like Centrair having lost all competitiveness lost over the heavy protection
by the FFVV, you just can't be in business.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Yurek wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:56:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you
don't sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an
excellent glider, very comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper
than the LS4 still it was difficult to sell, to say the least.

I can't agree with you again...
Pegase was nothing else, as a copy of ASW-19 (*), which was a good
construction. Pegase was not easy to sell, because it was not better
as the original. As Andreas Maurer noticed, it was sometimes even
worse...

The Pegase was ways better than the ASW19. It was as good as the LS4 if
not
better. Your comments are exactly the demonstration of the sort of crap
people
think of non German gliders, hence of the difficulty of selling them.

(*) This is patently false. The Pegase has original wings, which is by far
the
most important part of a glider.

--
Michel Talon

Bert Willing wrote:
The fact that the Pégase or ASW20F never sold in Germany are rather due to
the fact that Centrair went into licencing problems with Schleicher on the
number of ASW20 built under this lience, and that the Péegase fuselage as
well as the wing planiform are a 100% copy of the ASW20.

Anyways, this is quite irrelevant to our discussion. Wether some elements are
copies or not the fact is that the Pegase was a good glider and cheap, but did
not sell out of France.

Pitty though because the Pégase is a very good glider - but with a company
like Centrair having lost all competitiveness lost over the heavy protection
by the FFVV, you just can't be in business.

I agree completely, Centrair has never been a serious business.


--
Michel Talon

Yurek wrote:
...
The difficulty we have in our sweet France is, that government is
trying to push some companies (like Centrair) and this kind of
protection does not make entreprises stronger. It makes them even
weaker, and when the protection stops, they disappear. Centrair
stopped the production of gliders, because this company didn't have
good stuff, nor a good commercial behavior and was unable to sell
without special help (like a bulk order of the French Gliding
Federation) . Novaday they are subcontractors of Airbus, and I hope
they will perform better...
In the same time, a really excellent French construction, which is
Crystal, took 10 years to be certified ! Commercially speaking, it is
dead before to be born...
20 years earlier, you could see the same situation, when the French
administration pushed forward the construction of Wassmers Bijave
against the Breguets Choucas... with the same kind of result.
...

Opinions about the government sponsoring gliding and glider manufcturers
may be debated, but in my opinion one thing is sure : if we didn't
have this sponsoring in the past, France would certainly not be among
the 3 countries (with Germany and USA) where the number of glider pilots
exceeds (barely in France) 10000. The case of the USA is atypical,
considering the population the number is small. And in Germany the sponsoring
is much older, even if it stopped earlier, the trend it triggered is
much more important.

I don't think the commercial behaviour of Centrair had an incidence
on the end of production of gliders, but the lack of innovation and
performance improvement certainly was a factor, as the market for new
gliders is mainly lead by top competitors who are ready to put a lot
of money in a glider provided it gives a better chance to win.

Considering the choice of the Bijave, I agree it was a poor choice
when compared to Breguet, but the cost of Breguet was much higher
and the purpose of the sponsoring was to encourage cheap flying,
much more Bijave than Choucas could be buyed with this sponsoring.
Anyway it is well known the decision was based on political lobbying
and neither on performance nor on cost :-(