Change training aircraft? C172* vs. PA28-*

Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My
training waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps
Commercial and even CFI if I can keep building the skills and financing
the habit long enough to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the
C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181.
The wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home base,
and a couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for your
buck in these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer
aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same
time, which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying.
The questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost
effectively) achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on
cross-training or changing airplanes after solo but prior to that first
private certificate? Of course, if changing now would diminish the
development of the most proficient skills, it would not be worth any
cost savings, but I thought I would ask what others think before moving
forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to share.

Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.

On 21 Feb 2005 07:15:48 GMT, (Blanche Cohen)
wrote:

Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.

I trained on C150/152 then checked out in a C172 (not the latest :-) )
and found it required more force to hold up the nose on landing.
I now add 'slight' nose up trim just before the flare if I'm renting a
C172.

Mostly I fly a PA28 and find the low wing gives slight cushioning so
it can help make the landing softer. The nose is lower so just pitch
the to the end of the runway but make sure you don't land on the nose
wheel....!

It's the old argument again but my wife prefers the low wing. You keep
dry with the high wing but it's easier to climb into the low wing.
With the C172 you need to lift the wing slightly, before turning, to
check it's clear. With the low wing you're slightly blind to aircraft
under the wing.

I'd go for the cheapest.

David

In article ,
wrote:

I trained on C150/152 then checked out in a C172 (not the latest :-) )
and found it required more force to hold up the nose on landing.
I now add 'slight' nose up trim just before the flare if I'm renting a
C172.

The effect is even more pronounced on a 182, but I came to the
conclusion that trimming nose high is a Really Bad Idea because if you
have to go around you have to push the over pretty hard in order to
avoid a power on stall. If you forget, you're dead. Better to get a
set of weights and do curls so that you have the strength to pull the
yoke back hard enough to flare. IMHO.

As for the original question, again IMO, you'll get done faster if you
stick with what you started with. Other than that it doesn't really
matter, and if you're headed for more advanced training you'll want to
fly both types sooner or later anyway.

rg

wrote:

You keep dry with the high wing but it's easier to climb
into the low wing.

Huh? Having flown many missions for Angel Flight in both a C172 and a
Bonanza, I can say that many patients preferred the method for climbing
into a high wing rather than that of a low wing.

There were a few patients I couldn't take because they could not climb onto
the wing to enter the Bonanza.

--
Peter













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"Blanche Cohen" wrote in message ...
Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.


One big advantage of the high wing is being able to see folks on long final during turns in the pattern...no religion
here ;-)

Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Once you have your PP certificate, then you can get checked out and fly
any other single engine aircraft.

Meanwhile, if you change over to a Piper Cherokee, you will have to
deal with fuel management, IN FLIGHT. You have to turn on/off a fuel
pump in the pattern, switching of tanks (can't select both, only left
or right or off). And you will have to re-learn to taxi and what the
sight picture is for landing.

Switching between a C150 and a C152 is pretty easy and I did that
during my training (and had to get a sign-off for both aircraft for
solo). I much preferred the C152 and took the check ride in it.

BTW - I own a PA28-180 today. When I bought it, I had about 200 hours
in Cessna hi-wings. Transition to the low wing Piper, in my opinion,
would have cost me another 5 hours minimum (for solo). Today I have
over 130 hours in the PA28, done in 18 months (the first 100 were done
in 7 months, but here in OH with all the nice winter weather and the
annual from hell...).

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

"Steve.T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.


Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

BT

BTIZ wrote:
"Steve.T" wrote in message
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

I think what Steve was referring to is student pilot limitations. I solo'd
in a C172 and did both my x-countries in the C172. I bought the PA28
before I completed training. That meant the CFI had to approve
me for solo in the PA28. A couple hours more training then
he signed me off. In the back of my logbook there's a section on
Endorsements. The first solo endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a Cessna 172 only with
prior knowledge and consent..."

The second endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a PA28A and C172 in
winds less than 15 kts..."

The second one was when I was allowed to go other places, too.

Yes, fuel management is different. On the other hand, if electricity
fails, the manual flaps still work just fine.

As I said, for most differences, it's really just a religious
(or political) issue.

Ok... that makes more sense... but it is not a "type rating"....

We do the same here with our students.. most make their first solo in the
SGS 2-33A, two seats..
then we cut them loose solo in the SGS 1-26D, single seat.. cockpit check
and a sign off..

standard wording about an instructor on the field with knowledge of the
students intent

BT

"Blanche Cohen" wrote in message
...
BTIZ wrote:
"Steve.T" wrote in message
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

I think what Steve was referring to is student pilot limitations. I solo'd
in a C172 and did both my x-countries in the C172. I bought the PA28
before I completed training. That meant the CFI had to approve
me for solo in the PA28. A couple hours more training then
he signed me off. In the back of my logbook there's a section on
Endorsements. The first solo endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a Cessna 172 only with
prior knowledge and consent..."

The second endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a PA28A and C172 in
winds less than 15 kts..."

The second one was when I was allowed to go other places, too.

Yes, fuel management is different. On the other hand, if electricity
fails, the manual flaps still work just fine.

As I said, for most differences, it's really just a religious
(or political) issue.