SENIORS CONTEST

Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

"Gordon Schubert" wrote in message
...
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

This brings up a point that I had not thought of......in a gate finish it is
possible to call others on the radio to report seeing them or to say that
you are "to the left side of the gate" or to say that you are overtaking
them and above, since it is in a focused area. With a cylinder finish there
is no way to really do this unless you see them directly. With numerous
finishes at the same time how would one report your position...."KC is on
the 240 radial to the finish center 4 miles out at 810 feet"??? I can hear
all of those type fixes being reported at a nationals with 30 finishes in 5
minutes. Oh ya.

Re the specific incident you report.....once again it was poor judgement and
pilotage on the overtaking pilots part. If the pilot that was being
overtaken called in at 4 miles prior to the other then it is the following
gliders responsiblity to locate him and if he does not see him then it is
his responsibility to report that. This is no different than what occurs at
nearly every controlled airport in the nation hourly. A gate at least
allows meaningful position fixes vs. the cylinder finish.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to do.
I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of each
other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to do.
I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

And did no one on the ground have a radio and see this developing?

Gary

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of
each other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to
do. I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Yes, how did this happen? I have flown in several Seniors, and radio
discipline is usually quite good!
Just guessing (I know, bad!), one of them had to fail to switch from "crew"
123.5 to "gate" 123.3--So each announces and does not hear the other because
they are on different frequencies.
The overtake speed differential is small enough to keep them in the blind
spot a long time.

--
Hartley Falbaum
ASW27B "KF" USA


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of
each other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to
do. I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Disagree JJ. The exact same scenario is possible - even more likely in
the finish cylinder. One of the more recent weaknesses of the finish
line was introduced by GPS. The rules now state that the finish is
based on your trace and not whether or not you turned inside a physical
feature. To my mind, this is proof positive that our rules makers
aren't thinking their decisions through carefully, but are acting based
on technological possibility and ground crew convenience. I, for one,
don't check the panel for anything but airspeed once I've committed to
a gate finish. I can judge my altitude well enough, and I'm much more
interested in traffic than which way the nav arrow is pointing. Not the
case in the cylinder. I've flown through the latter enough now to know
I'm not comfortable with the amount of panel time I need to plan
execute my finish.

BTW, here's one of the hazards of flying empty. You are much more
visible with your comet tail in the finish gate/cylinder.

Gosh, as all the legends get older, this sport sure is getting prissy.
I'm all for safe... but sterile? ;-)

Gosh, as all the legends get older, this sport sure
is getting prissy.
I'm all for safe... but sterile? ;-)


I get tired of the low-finish proponents talking about
being braver, more skilled or less prissy.

If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way? I still manage to go to the
airport without being 'worried or scared' and fly without
doing the damn things.

U guys are coming dangerously close to appearing to
push a macho-man agenda to justify this manuever

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...


If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way?

Maybe it will scare you just thinking about it but we DO finish every flight
this way in Arizona! In fact on a day that none of us could get over tow
release height I saw one of my esteemed colleagues do a pass down the runway
at about 50 feet. He was having fun and we all enjoyed watching it since it
was pretty much the highlight of the day. It is nothing less than a
precision manuever and if it bothers you and you don't have the skills to
perform it then by no means are any of us pushing you to do it but please do
not criticize those of us that enjoy it and do it well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix