Fueling from Plastic Containers and Blowing yourself up?

I just read the thread above on static electricity problems associated
with using jerry cans of various compositions. I have a couple
questions and comments.

First of all, does anyone really know of an accident anywhere? I
mean, is there anyone out there in this ng who has ever seen a fire
start from a static discharge associated with one of these cans? I
have heard about this for years, but Wal-Mart and hundreds of other
retail outlets sell gas cans that are made of nonconductive plastic.
The red plastic ones I have are not conductive. And...it's obvious if
you have a conductive can, you can get rid of the electrons real easy
by pre-grounding. I'd bet that my red-plastic gas cans are completely
nonconductive however.

So, I'm thinking that even if you have a big electron buildup on the
plastic can, it can't flow fast enough to make a spark anyway.

I think the older metal cans were more dangerous because they did
conduct and if they were isolated and built up electrons, those
electrons could move fast through the metal spout and make a spark.
Even then, however, I have never heard of a real accident from filling
a tank anywhere. Yes, I've heard rumors of accidents, but does anyone
out there in RAH- land know of a specific accident happening that was
caused by using any fueling can, ever?

About a year ago, I saw a video clip on TV where this guy went to
fill a can in the back of his pick-em-up truck and some gas fumes sort
of exploded, burning him quite badly. But, this is the only accident
I've ever heard of or seen first hand and it was something a little
different since it was a spark from a gas pump nozzle somehow.

Also, it's a matter of the chemical kinetics. Since gasoline is so
volatile the hydrocarbon/oxygen ratio in the air above the liquid
gasoline in one of those cans is too high for combustion. You can
throw a cigarette in a can of gas like that and it will most likely go
out. The kinetics for burning are just not right because of the
overload of hydrocarbons. Of course at the mouth of a gas can things
are different. You can have perfect kinetics for burning since the
hydrocarbons are escaping into the atmosphere there is plenty of
oxygen.

I know that kerosene for instance is much more dangerous because it's
more oily and less volatile. So, you have perfect kinetics for
burning in the air above the liquid in a gas can. We don't put jet
fuel in gas cans for that reason.

Anyway, is there anyone out there who knows of a real accident using
either metal or plastic cans?

Just curious

----Whaa Keen

"The only difference between a nobleman and a commoner is that the
nobleman thinks one thing and says another."
--Zorro

"Juaquin Murrieta" wrote in message
...

Anyway, is there anyone out there who knows of a real accident using
either metal or plastic cans?

Just curious

Well, it is one way to know for sure if you are going to heaven. :-)

Yes, I would like to know if there have been any accidents attributed to the
composition of the can, too.

It is very well documented that there is a hazard with metal gas cans being
filled while in the back of pickup beds with plastic bed liners. Here is a
link to an article that also documents the problem occurring with plastic
portable fuel containers. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm

Chevron has a very detailed news release located at
http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/extension/...re-gascan.html

Here are a few other links

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hid2.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE17400.pdf

Do a search on google.com and you will get hundreds of sites.

Jeff


"Juaquin Murrieta" wrote in message
...

I just read the thread above on static electricity problems associated
with using jerry cans of various compositions. I have a couple
questions and comments.

First of all, does anyone really know of an accident anywhere? I
mean, is there anyone out there in this ng who has ever seen a fire
start from a static discharge associated with one of these cans? I
have heard about this for years, but Wal-Mart and hundreds of other
retail outlets sell gas cans that are made of nonconductive plastic.
The red plastic ones I have are not conductive. And...it's obvious if
you have a conductive can, you can get rid of the electrons real easy
by pre-grounding. I'd bet that my red-plastic gas cans are completely
nonconductive however.

So, I'm thinking that even if you have a big electron buildup on the
plastic can, it can't flow fast enough to make a spark anyway.

I think the older metal cans were more dangerous because they did
conduct and if they were isolated and built up electrons, those
electrons could move fast through the metal spout and make a spark.
Even then, however, I have never heard of a real accident from filling
a tank anywhere. Yes, I've heard rumors of accidents, but does anyone
out there in RAH- land know of a specific accident happening that was
caused by using any fueling can, ever?

About a year ago, I saw a video clip on TV where this guy went to
fill a can in the back of his pick-em-up truck and some gas fumes sort
of exploded, burning him quite badly. But, this is the only accident
I've ever heard of or seen first hand and it was something a little
different since it was a spark from a gas pump nozzle somehow.

Also, it's a matter of the chemical kinetics. Since gasoline is so
volatile the hydrocarbon/oxygen ratio in the air above the liquid
gasoline in one of those cans is too high for combustion. You can
throw a cigarette in a can of gas like that and it will most likely go
out. The kinetics for burning are just not right because of the
overload of hydrocarbons. Of course at the mouth of a gas can things
are different. You can have perfect kinetics for burning since the
hydrocarbons are escaping into the atmosphere there is plenty of
oxygen.

I know that kerosene for instance is much more dangerous because it's
more oily and less volatile. So, you have perfect kinetics for
burning in the air above the liquid in a gas can. We don't put jet
fuel in gas cans for that reason.

Anyway, is there anyone out there who knows of a real accident using
either metal or plastic cans?

Just curious

----Whaa Keen

"The only difference between a nobleman and a commoner is that the
nobleman thinks one thing and says another."
--Zorro

Jeff wrote:

It is very well documented that there ilitigation with metal gas cans
being
filled while in the back of pickup beds with plastic bed liners. Here is
a link to an article that also documents the problem occurring with
plastic
portable fuel containers. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm

Chevron has a very detailed news release located at
http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/extension/...re-gascan.html

Here are a few other links

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hid2.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE17400.pdf

Do a search on google.com and you will get hundreds of sites.

Jeff



Yes, they'd also like to make you think that cell phones will cause and
explosion while filling your tank. I'm thinking since a cell phone is a
duplex transceiver there is no antenna switching, no relays to arc so what
would cause an explosion? A watt or so of rf, not in my life!
These things come from our societies fascination with litigation! No one
wants to take responsibilities for their own screw ups! Most of the fueling
accidents I'd be willing to bet are from people arcing from themselves to
the car in dry cold conditions.
So use common sense, ground yourself to the fueling vessel and fueled vessel
then open the containers and do it!
John
off the soap box now!

"UltraJohn" wrote in message
k.net...

Yes, they'd also like to make you think that cell phones will cause and
explosion while filling your tank. I'm thinking since a cell phone is a
duplex transceiver there is no antenna switching, no relays to arc so what
would cause an explosion?

The Mythbusters actually tried to get a cell phone to cause an explosion,
even putting it inside a container of fuel and air the same ratio as in an
engine. No dice. In fact, there has never been an explosion that can be
verified as having been caused by a cell phone.

Yet you still see cell phone warnings at some fuel pumps, the vendors say
because they are concerned about liability. But if someone beats you up
because they believe those warnings, can you sue the gas company?

In fact, there has never been an explosion that can be
verified as having been caused by a cell phone.

I can't cite any examples, but I'll give you a scenario where a cell
phone could cause an explosion: What if the phone is set to vibrate
mode and you happen to receive a call while in the presence of
explosive vapors? The vibrator is usually a small DC motor with an
eccentric weight on the shaft - and DC motors make sparks!.

On the subject of static causing explosions and fires - there is
definitely a hazard. I have seen several video clips of it happening.
Static typically involves quite high voltages but only a tiny amount of
current. Even though something like a plastic can is a poor conductor,
there is some ability to pass current (perhaps aided by contaminants on
the surface). So if you "ground" the item in question any difference in
potential between it and other "grounded" things in the vicinity will
tend to be reduced. Personally I take the advice and place gas cans on
the ground when filling them. It's also a good idea to touch some part
of the can (other than the spout) to the machine you are refuelling
before starting to pour.

David Johnson

UltraJohn wrote:
Jeff wrote:


It is very well documented that there ilitigation with metal gas cans
being
filled while in the back of pickup beds with plastic bed liners. Here is
a link to an article that also documents the problem occurring with
plastic
portable fuel containers. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm

Chevron has a very detailed news release located at
http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/extension/...re-gascan.html

Here are a few other links

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hid2.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE17400.pdf

Do a search on google.com and you will get hundreds of sites.

Jeff




Yes, they'd also like to make you think that cell phones will cause and
explosion while filling your tank. I'm thinking since a cell phone is a
duplex transceiver there is no antenna switching, no relays to arc so what
would cause an explosion? A watt or so of rf, not in my life!
These things come from our societies fascination with litigation! No one
wants to take responsibilities for their own screw ups! Most of the fueling
accidents I'd be willing to bet are from people arcing from themselves to
the car in dry cold conditions.
So use common sense, ground yourself to the fueling vessel and fueled vessel
then open the containers and do it!
John
off the soap box now!

There was a Myth Busters show about this. It turns out the cell phone
users kept making and breaking physical contact with the vehicle. Same
with people who sat in the car after starting fueling. I think the moral
was to either limit the number of contacts in the fueling area or stay
attached to the vehicle or nozzle.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

A former flight student of ours had a fuel fire while refuelling
an airplane with plastic cans in Alaska. Cold air equals dry air, which
is worse for static buildup, and cold air reduces the evaporation rate
of the fuel, making a more combustible mixture around the filler neck
and inside the can as air replaces the fuel. It's not quite the same as
fuelling your lawn mower on a warm summer afternoon with a quart or two
of fuel. Longer pours can cause a higher static buildup.
Those red plastic jerry cans are apparently made of a
static-resistant material. I sure wouldn't want to carry fuel in other
non-fuel types of plastic containers.


Dan (from Alberta, where winter is sometimes seven months
long)

UltraJohn wrote:
Yes, they'd also like to make you think that cell phones will cause and
explosion while filling your tank. I'm thinking since a cell phone is a
duplex transceiver there is no antenna switching, no relays to arc so what
would cause an explosion? A watt or so of rf, not in my life!

A nitpick that reinforces your point, cell phones are normally .6
watts max. Most automatically reduce power with good reception, and
furthermore digital phones have a small duty cycle (only transmit
very short bursts several times a second). I think the old car
phones used 3w.

The funny thing about some (all? my old Motorola at least) cell
phones is the moment when someone calls you and your cell phone rings
or vibrates, it also transmits peak power (an electronic "I'm right
here!!!" to the network?). So do we put polite signs next to gas
pumps for all to turn off their phones? Heh, people can't even get
that right in a movie theater, church, court, on an airline...

To paraphrase what you said, hahahaha.

Funny the thread should turn this way, and on the topic of aviation,
a few military fields I've stopped at over the last year now have a
rule against using cell phones close to the fuel truck (filled with
JP-8 nonetheless). Most squadrons and/or bases have restrictions on
hot refueling- turn off transmitters like transponders, radar
altimeters, don't make radio transmissions, but cell phones and cold
refueling is taking it a bit far.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:58:42 GMT, (Juaquin Murrieta)
wrote:


I just read the thread above on static electricity problems associated
with using jerry cans of various compositions. I have a couple
questions and comments.

First of all, does anyone really know of an accident anywhere? I
mean, is there anyone out there in this ng who has ever seen a fire
start from a static discharge associated with one of these cans?

One incident mentioned at:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/arch...ch/Static1.htm

....though I didn't find it on the NTSB accident database.

Ron Wanttaja