Time for Separate 18m Records?

Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:45:25 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob

I am really going to get flamed on this one, but I would love to see the legacy 15 meter birds get folded into sports/club and just have STD, 18 meter, 20 meter two place and open. I think if the sport supported standard class and 18 meter class there would be enough difference in price to help attract and keep new pilots. Just a thought and since I can't think of a pure 15 meter bird being produced now, why keep the 15 meter class?

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 1:01:52 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:45:25 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob

I am really going to get flamed on this one, but I would love to see the legacy 15 meter birds get folded into sports/club and just have STD, 18 meter, 20 meter two place and open. I think if the sport supported standard class and 18 meter class there would be enough difference in price to help attract and keep new pilots. Just a thought and since I can't think of a pure 15 meter bird being produced now, why keep the 15 meter class?

It's pretty common for people to be willing to scrap the class they don't fly.
15 is the class that has the largest number of ships with relative parity.
UH

I agree with a separate 18m class.

Lou - full disclosure - LAK17AT 18m

On Monday, 20 April 2020 15:50:18 UTC+3, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

FAI: no it has not. Too many records, too many classes, they just inflate the whole idea. You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else.

At 12:50 20 April 2020, Roy B. wrote:
Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether
the=
FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a
separ=
ate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very
popu=
lar, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged
with
=
standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open
Clas=
s performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of
that=
class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class
i=
s succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do
any=
national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record
categor=
y? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there
reaso=
ns to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY


Roy, a laudable suggestion. It's chances of success can best be judged by
looking at what gliders, if any, the FAI board members own and sometimes
actually fly. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and/or July 4th
celebrations!

Hello Kristian:

You wrote,
"You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else".

Perhaps you can fly as fast - But I am not sure that you can fly as far. But the same statement can be made about speed in a 15m glider compared to an 18m glider in strong conditions.

But, to your point, I've wondered why someone would pay all that extra money for an EB-29 if they can get the same performance from an 18m glider costing very much less?

The fact of too many classes is a separate problem - not a reason to exclude a deserving new class. Perhaps some existing classes should be discontinued or consolidated.

ROY

I agree Roy. Since the FAI already recognise the 18m, 15m Standard and Open classes for competitions there would seem to be no major reason not to recognise it as an additional class for records. A few extra claims to adjudicate perhaps but their costs would presumably be met by claim fees.

On Monday, 20 April 2020 20:53:51 UTC+3, Roy B. wrote:
Hello Kristian:

You wrote,
"You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else".

Perhaps you can fly as fast - But I am not sure that you can fly as far. But the same statement can be made about speed in a 15m glider compared to an 18m glider in strong conditions.

But, to your point, I've wondered why someone would pay all that extra money for an EB-29 if they can get the same performance from an 18m glider costing very much less?

The fact of too many classes is a separate problem - not a reason to exclude a deserving new class. Perhaps some existing classes should be discontinued or consolidated.

ROY

If you look at current world records, these are all flown in exceptional weather (Argentinian wave or Namibian desert thermals) where long wings are really not an advantage. Yes you can fly longer with EB-29 in European weak day, but then you are not flying a record.

Discontinuing class is more or less unprecedented in FAI history (which is a shame).

In my opinion, the 15m/Open is simple way of doing things. 13.5m is just historical burden of massively failed class that should have no record category or competition class.

I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference.