Glider Purchase Procedure - Annual & Pre Purchase Inspection?

Hello,
I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.

Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?

If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?

In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?

New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?

Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:34:53 PM UTC-7, NMD wrote:
Hello,
I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.

Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?

If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?

In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?

New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?

Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

Legally, an annual (or condition) inspection only means that the glider is airworthy. It does not guarantee, for example, that any of the instruments work (they should, but no A&P that has done one of my annuals even powered up the panel). Or that their are significant finish issues. They will have cycled the gear, but do not check the brake. Most of the time the glider is not rigged, so any problems with rigging won't be identified. They will not have gone over the wings with a coin and have done a tap test to identify delaminations. The will not have checked the wing resonant frequency. They won't care about cracks in the canopy. Of course, the trailer isn't a part of an annual and has its own issues. Damage history SHOULD be entered in the logbook, but I have heard of this not being done.

Worse still, some A&Ps may be friends of the seller and may not be conscientious. Of course, some A&Ps are more thorough than others and may do more than the minimum. You should insist on a current weight and balance which will likely detect undocumented repairs. Any seller who balks at this may be trying to cover up a prior repair.

Tom

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.


A careful inspection of the glider, logs, title, AD's, W&B, and trailer by someone that you trust to be knowledgable.

This is definitely before flight, but if the money is important, then before purchase.

Who you trust might be you or your mechanic, or in some circumstances someone connected to the seller if you think this results in an inspection you can trust your butt with.

I've looked at a few and bought two. I was comfortable doing the initial inspections myself. For the first, I bought it and then got a trusted friend/A&P to look at structure, flight, and finish stuff before the first flight. For the second, I got an expert before the purchase.

I was told getting a weight and balance was important, especially if there have been repairs.
I'd think this is important also for a refinished glider with no damage history.

I'll be in the same boat as you soon, so chimed in and hope to gain from some other posts after mine.

Good luck in your search.

When I bought my LAK-17a, I drove 10 hours to get to the site and spent
the weekend.Â* I spent a couple of hours examining the ship after the
owner and I rigged it.Â* I discovered some minor scraping on the nose of
the glider which the owner explained happened when he got enthusiastic
on the brake.

We did all the things 2G mentioned and then I got a thorough briefing on
the aircraft and we found a CFIG at the club who signed my log book.Â* I
then took a two and flew the ship for 2 hours, staying within about 25
miles of the airport.Â* After landing, we agreed to the price and I went
to the motel.Â* Next morning we met at the club, exchanged paper and
money (wire transfer), and I was on my way home, arriving on Sunday
night.Â* I flew that ship for four years and about 650 hours.Â* Great times.

Recently I heard from the guy who bought it from me.Â* He's still loving it!

On 4/24/2020 6:31 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:34:53 PM UTC-7, NMD wrote:
Hello,
I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.

Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?

If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?

In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?

New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?

Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason
Legally, an annual (or condition) inspection only means that the glider is airworthy. It does not guarantee, for example, that any of the instruments work (they should, but no A&P that has done one of my annuals even powered up the panel). Or that their are significant finish issues. They will have cycled the gear, but do not check the brake. Most of the time the glider is not rigged, so any problems with rigging won't be identified. They will not have gone over the wings with a coin and have done a tap test to identify delaminations. The will not have checked the wing resonant frequency. They won't care about cracks in the canopy. Of course, the trailer isn't a part of an annual and has its own issues. Damage history SHOULD be entered in the logbook, but I have heard of this not being done.

Worse still, some A&Ps may be friends of the seller and may not be conscientious. Of course, some A&Ps are more thorough than others and may do more than the minimum. You should insist on a current weight and balance which will likely detect undocumented repairs. Any seller who balks at this may be trying to cover up a prior repair.

Tom


--
Dan, 5J

How do sellers feel about letting a possible purchaser fly a glider before they buy it?

Personally I'd not allow it, certainly not with a high performance or complex glider.

I'd be open to refunding money if the buyer asked, provided no damage had been done.

I bought my current glider after my inspection, and looking over the logbooks, but didn't fly it before purchase. But it was a well-known good glider (ventus 2cxM). I did extend and start the engine and check the rpm, mag drops. I've been satisfied.

Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental 😜

Before money or cashier's check changes hands, do make sure you have insurance activated.

Even if the glider remains stationary, floods, tornadoes and hangar collapses can happen.

Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.

That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.

Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.

Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.

Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)

Good luck with your search.

Best plan if you can make it happen is have the mechanic that is going to be doing your inspections do a pre-buy on the ship, or an Annual inspection would be better. At a minimum talk to this person to see what they recommend for a. Pre-buy inspection.

Brian
CFIG/ASEL