Alarming news stories on instructor and student down at HPN

Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

First:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260335/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

Paramedic had set sights on sky

By BILL HUGHES AND CANDICE FERRETTE

THE JOURNAL NEWS

YONKERS ‹ Paramedic Lev Naoumov briefly considered going to medical
school after graduating from college with a biology degree before the
urge to become a professional pilot took hold of him a few months ago.

Yesterday, his family and friends were still reeling from the outcome
of that career decision, which led to the well-liked 23-year-old man's
death, along with his instructor, in a plane crash Saturday
snip
Gary Reben, 27, another fellow paramedic, said that he had been out
shooting pool with Naoumov on Friday night, and his friend had said he
would not be flying the next day because of bad weather in the
forecast.

And...

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260334/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

By RICHARD LIEBSON
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original Publication: April 26, 2005)

PORT CHESTER ‹ A flight instructor who was killed in a plane crash
Saturday afternoon near Westchester County Airport did not like flying
in bad weather but was working overtime to save money so he could visit
his ailing father in a Puerto Rican hospital, his brother said
yesterday.


So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.

This does NOT look good.

Tom Fleischman wrote:
Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?

This does NOT look good.

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
source for aviation accident investigation determination.

In article , john smith
wrote:

Tom Fleischman wrote:
Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?


What I find alarming is that this instructor chose to take his primary
student out flying on perhaps the worst day for weather flying in the
past few months.

This does NOT look good.

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
source for aviation accident investigation determination.

I'm not saying that I have determined anything, so please do not put
words in my mouth. What I said was that from a pilot's perspective, as
well as from that of the general public, this does not look good.

Can you say "reckless and careless"?

Tom Fleischman wrote:

What I find alarming is that this instructor chose to take his primary
student out flying on perhaps the worst day for weather flying in the
past few months.


This does NOT look good.

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
source for aviation accident investigation determination.


I'm not saying that I have determined anything, so please do not put
words in my mouth. What I said was that from a pilot's perspective, as
well as from that of the general public, this does not look good.

Can you say "reckless and careless"?

Just stop. If the instrutor was IFR rated, and he was flying, it was
a straightforward deal. My instructor demoed IFR flights for me many
times during my IFR training, does that make him an idiot ?

What say we find out what really happened.

Do we know how the weather was? I've taken students out when the AWOS
says 1/2 mile vis with indef ceiling 100 feet (we get a lot of fog
around here). It's good practice for the student to shoot real
approaches with some misses (we have above fog alternates close by). An
approach to a 100 foot ceiling is interesting since it usually means
you see the rabbit at 200 feet.
-Robert, CFI

Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under
pressure to "work overtime". That primary student had no business flying
low IMC without a modicum of instrument training after a night shooting pool
[--and downing a few beers expecting not to fly- does anyone doubt the
likelihood of a young guy and few beers in a pool hall in Yonkers?-] and
subjugating his cautious expectations to the anxieties of money-anxious
instructor. The school had no business having a policy void against sending
up an off-the-shelf C172 in low IMC with the temp/dewpoint spread at zero
with a VFR primary student.

I invite all the posters who previously characterized this flight as a
CFII's opportunity to introduce a VFR primary student to the wonders of a
low IMC cross country as a confidence builder, to run that by me again.
Please also try to argue that this wasn't a major CFIT ****-up!





"john smith" wrote in message
news
Tom Fleischman wrote:
Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?

This does NOT look good.

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
source for aviation accident investigation determination.

R.L. wrote:
Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under

They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor offers
that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere else.
If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the field
was IFR, then you have a case.

The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are dead.
They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a proper
investigation. You can't ? Tough.

The reason (why they went up) nags at me more than the cause (why they went
down). The latter is the NTSB's bailiwick. The former should be ours (as
pilots). I don't want to wait for the outcome of an investigation later
for the lesson I should be learning now.

And I am sickened over the fact that two pilots' precious lives were
lost...on a whim, it seems.



"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
R.L. wrote:
Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of
serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue
that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under

They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor
offers
that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere
else.
If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the
field
was IFR, then you have a case.

The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are
dead.
They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a
proper
investigation. You can't ? Tough.

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.

This does NOT look good.

Except that the articles you cited said nothing about being in a bar, or
drinking. And even he had been, he could still have been in perfectly
reasonable shape to fly the following afternoon. And there's certainly
nothing unusual about a flight instructor needing money.

--Gary

In article , Gary Drescher
wrote:

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.

This does NOT look good.

Except that the articles you cited said nothing about being in a bar, or
drinking. And even he had been, he could still have been in perfectly
reasonable shape to fly the following afternoon.

You are absolutely right, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if he
was shooting pool late at night it was probably in a bar, and if he was
shooting pool late at night he was probably also drinking, particulary
if he didn't think that he'd be flying the next day.

And there's certainly
nothing unusual about a flight instructor needing money.


No, but there is something unusual about an instructor taking a primary
student out in weather that bad.