Innocent Guantanamo detainees speak out on abuse, murder.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...646014,00.html

Note the disturbing parallel between the Nazi camp guards humilation of Jews
by the desecration of the trappings of their religion (e.g. forcing them to
wear underclothing made from cut up prayer shawls etc) and the Guantamo
regime:

"When they handed out Korans to us in Bagram I remember seeing the Americans
passing them through the airlocks and throwing them onto the ground. People
might think that well, its just a book, but if you believe like you do as a
Muslim that this is the unadulterated revealed speech of God and it is the
most sacred thing that a Muslim would have in his house. To see them do that
for me brought about a sense of complete desperation,"

Of course, such dehumanisation and contempt for your captives is necessary
if you'r egoing to have to shovel them into a gas oven one day..

"And it was of course part of the dehumanising process again. And one of the
guards there of that unit told me when I used to have discussions with them,
that when we see you people we can't look at you as human beings. Our psyche
does not allow us to do that - because if we did we wouldn't treat you this
way. It's easy for us to dehumanise you. First of all most of you guys don't
speak the same language. Secondly, you look different. Thirdly, you're
dressed different. Fourthly, you're in cages and we're out here with the
guns.
The people who claim to be the upholders and defenders of freedom are
debating now whether it is legitimate to use torture. After all of what the
world has been through arguing against the fact. And if it does in one way
or another become legitimised, either mental torture or physical or
psychological, which has been clearly used by several countries, then I
think the world will spiral into something that nobody will be able to
control."

Dear tw
What has this to do with soaring?
I await your reply.
Bill Hatfield-my real name.
tw wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...646014,00.html

Note the disturbing parallel between the Nazi camp guards humilation of Jews
by the desecration of the trappings of their religion (e.g. forcing them to
wear underclothing made from cut up prayer shawls etc) and the Guantamo
regime:

"When they handed out Korans to us in Bagram I remember seeing the Americans
passing them through the airlocks and throwing them onto the ground. People
might think that well, its just a book, but if you believe like you do as a
Muslim that this is the unadulterated revealed speech of God and it is the
most sacred thing that a Muslim would have in his house. To see them do that
for me brought about a sense of complete desperation,"

Of course, such dehumanisation and contempt for your captives is necessary
if you'r egoing to have to shovel them into a gas oven one day..

"And it was of course part of the dehumanising process again. And one of the
guards there of that unit told me when I used to have discussions with them,
that when we see you people we can't look at you as human beings. Our psyche
does not allow us to do that - because if we did we wouldn't treat you this
way. It's easy for us to dehumanise you. First of all most of you guys don't
speak the same language. Secondly, you look different. Thirdly, you're
dressed different. Fourthly, you're in cages and we're out here with the
guns.
The people who claim to be the upholders and defenders of freedom are
debating now whether it is legitimate to use torture. After all of what the
world has been through arguing against the fact. And if it does in one way
or another become legitimised, either mental torture or physical or
psychological, which has been clearly used by several countries, then I
think the world will spiral into something that nobody will be able to
control."

"bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear tw
What has this to do with soaring?
I await your reply.
Bill Hatfield-my real name.

Sorry about that old son, total brain fart in as you have quite rightly
pointed out the completely, utterly and totally wrong newsgroup.I cancelled
it as soon as I'd realised my Paté de faux-pas but the cancel hasnae
propagated as fast as I'd hoped.

tw (my real initials)

Bill, Do you realise how much the USA is hated and
despised in the rest of the World? And what goes on
in Guantamano Bay doesn't help your cause one iota!

I say this as a white, protestant, Anglo-Saxon, English
person (and a glider pilot). I was one of the estimated
2 - 3 million people who took part in the Anti-War
march in London prior to your country's invasion of
Iraq. I very much regret that we were not able to influence
our Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to withdraw his support
for this action.

This war has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, over
2000 US troops and I think about 200 UK troops. We
have recently suffered a serious terrorist attack in
London, probably directly as a result of our Government's
support for the war and America.

And for what purpose? No weapons of mass destruction
have been found. The lot of the general population
of Iraq is much worse now than it was before, even
with Saddam Hussain out of power. I can only think
that this war was prompted by a desire for revenge
for the attack on the World Trade Centre, but as far
as I can see, there is little evidence that Iraq was
involved in this plot, dreadful though it was.

Your country is supposed to represent freedom and democracy,
but since you elected that bumbling idiot George W.
Bush, your ideals seem to have gone down the tubes.
Please thing what you are doing. If the USA as the
most powerful country in the World won't comply with
UN resolutions, why should any other country?

Sorry, not strictly related to gliding, but I just
ask you to think about what is going on in the World.
You may feel safe in your huge and geographically isolated
country, but we in Europe don't. There have also been
major terrorist attacks in other European countries,
especially Spain, where I also go gliding.

Derek Copeland

At 11:36 21 November 2005, Bill wrote:
Dear tw
What has this to do with soaring?
I await your reply.
Bill Hatfield-my real name.
tw wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...1646014,00.htm
l

Note the disturbing parallel between the Nazi camp
guards humilation of Jews
by the desecration of the trappings of their religion
(e.g. forcing them to
wear underclothing made from cut up prayer shawls
etc) and the Guantamo
regime:

'When they handed out Korans to us in Bagram I remember
seeing the Americans
passing them through the airlocks and throwing them
onto the ground. People
might think that well, its just a book, but if you
believe like you do as a
Muslim that this is the unadulterated revealed speech
of God and it is the
most sacred thing that a Muslim would have in his
house. To see them do that
for me brought about a sense of complete desperation,'

Of course, such dehumanisation and contempt for your
captives is necessary
if you'r egoing to have to shovel them into a gas
oven one day..

'And it was of course part of the dehumanising process
again. And one of the
guards there of that unit told me when I used to have
discussions with them,
that when we see you people we can't look at you as
human beings. Our psyche
does not allow us to do that - because if we did we
wouldn't treat you this
way. It's easy for us to dehumanise you. First of
all most of you guys don't
speak the same language. Secondly, you look different.
Thirdly, you're
dressed different. Fourthly, you're in cages and we're
out here with the
guns.
The people who claim to be the upholders and defenders
of freedom are
debating now whether it is legitimate to use torture.
After all of what the
world has been through arguing against the fact. And
if it does in one way
or another become legitimised, either mental torture
or physical or
psychological, which has been clearly used by several
countries, then I
think the world will spiral into something that nobody
will be able to
control.'

Dear Derek
Every man is entitled to his opinion. No man is entitled to be wrong in
his facts.
Were you to click on show options you would see why I did not vote
for that bumbling idiot.
Regards
Bill Hatfield

Derek

Perhaps your remarks would be better directed at President
Bush, I am sure the good people who share our love
of gliding do not want to be bothered by this on a
soaring forum.
I would like to assure those good people that the USA
is not hated by all, I fly from an airfield built for
the Mighty Eighth and I think it important to remember
who your friends are. Political considerations aside
glider pilots are that wherever they are and do not
deserve to read the sort of views expounded below on
a forum dedicated to our sport

DAJ
ASW17 401


At 13:18 21 November 2005, Derek Copeland wrote:
Bill, Do you realise how much the USA is hated and
despised in the rest of the World? And what goes on
in Guantamano Bay doesn't help your cause one iota!

I say this as a white, protestant, Anglo-Saxon, English
person (and a glider pilot). I was one of the estimated
2 - 3 million people who took part in the Anti-War
march in London prior to your country's invasion of
Iraq. I very much regret that we were not able to influence
our Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to withdraw his support
for this action.

This war has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, over
2000 US troops and I think about 200 UK troops. We
have recently suffered a serious terrorist attack in
London, probably directly as a result of our Government's
support for the war and America.

And for what purpose? No weapons of mass destruction
have been found. The lot of the general population
of Iraq is much worse now than it was before, even
with Saddam Hussain out of power. I can only think
that this war was prompted by a desire for revenge
for the attack on the World Trade Centre, but as far
as I can see, there is little evidence that Iraq was
involved in this plot, dreadful though it was.

Your country is supposed to represent freedom and democracy,
but since you elected that bumbling idiot George W.
Bush, your ideals seem to have gone down the tubes.
Please thing what you are doing. If the USA as the
most powerful country in the World won't comply with
UN resolutions, why should any other country?

Sorry, not strictly related to gliding, but I just
ask you to think about what is going on in the World.
You may feel safe in your huge and geographically isolated
country, but we in Europe don't. There have also been
major terrorist attacks in other European countries,
especially Spain, where I also go gliding.

Derek Copeland

At 11:36 21 November 2005, Bill wrote:
Dear tw
What has this to do with soaring?
I await your reply.
Bill Hatfield-my real name.
tw wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...1646014,00.htm

l

Note the disturbing parallel between the Nazi camp
guards humilation of Jews
by the desecration of the trappings of their religion
(e.g. forcing them to
wear underclothing made from cut up prayer shawls
etc) and the Guantamo
regime:

'When they handed out Korans to us in Bagram I remember
seeing the Americans
passing them through the airlocks and throwing them
onto the ground. People
might think that well, its just a book, but if you
believe like you do as a
Muslim that this is the unadulterated revealed speech
of God and it is the
most sacred thing that a Muslim would have in his
house. To see them do that
for me brought about a sense of complete desperation,'

Of course, such dehumanisation and contempt for your
captives is necessary
if you'r egoing to have to shovel them into a gas
oven one day..

'And it was of course part of the dehumanising process
again. And one of the
guards there of that unit told me when I used to have
discussions with them,
that when we see you people we can't look at you as
human beings. Our psyche
does not allow us to do that - because if we did we
wouldn't treat you this
way. It's easy for us to dehumanise you. First of
all most of you guys don't
speak the same language. Secondly, you look different.
Thirdly, you're
dressed different. Fourthly, you're in cages and we're
out here with the
guns.
The people who claim to be the upholders and defenders
of freedom are
debating now whether it is legitimate to use torture.
After all of what the
world has been through arguing against the fact. And
if it does in one way
or another become legitimised, either mental torture
or physical or
psychological, which has been clearly used by several
countries, then I
think the world will spiral into something that nobody
will be able to
control.'

You know, my cancelling of the original post might actually have worked if
peopel didn't keep quoting the bugger verbatim in all their replies.
I have purchased sackloth, ashes, tra AND feathers in a bid to make up for
my original bit of finger trouble and intend to return to my erstwhile
strictly lurker role here ASAP.

tw wrote:
You know, my cancelling of the original post might actually have worked if
peopel didn't keep quoting the bugger verbatim in all their replies.
I have purchased sackloth, ashes, tra AND feathers in a bid to make up for
my original bit of finger trouble and intend to return to my erstwhile
strictly lurker role here ASAP.


Nah, don't lurk. This group needs new blood (not to be spilled, just in
the figure of speach sense).

Shawn

At 13:42 21 November 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:
Derek

Perhaps your remarks would be better directed at President
Bush,
---------------------------------
Hi Don (the universal expert on everything!).

We clash on another forum. I think that President Bush
would be too thick to understand my remarks anyway!

I should make clear that most Americans, the ones I
have met anyway, are nice, likable people. How they
collectively (although very marginally) managed to
elect George 'W' as President is therefore quite beyond
me! But then I thought that Bill Clinton was a good,
intelligent and sensible President (well he was partly
educated in the UK), whereas I gather the US 'Moral
Majority' didn't think much of him. I don't think much
of Tony Blair either by the way.

We Brits. are extremely grateful for America's help
in World War II, without which we would probably now
be living in a totalitarian state, controlled by Germany.
Obviously we are more than happy to return the help
wherever we can, but only for legitimate wars. The
war against Iraq was never sanctioned by the United
Nations. In my opinion Saddam Hussain was more of a
blusterer than an actual threat to anybody outside
his own country. While the UN weapons inspectors were
in Iraq and apparently making progress the Allies should
never have declared war on Iraq!

I never thought that invading Iraq would defeat 'Terrorism',
or make things better for the Iraqi people. In fact
it seems to have had entirely the opposite effects,
as so many Muslims were so angered by it, that they
are queuing up to be suicide bombers, even British
born ones!

Anyway, end of rant, but preventing the war was something
I cared passionately about at the time. I did all that
I could by writing letters to politicians and newspapers,
as well as taking part in protest marches - something
I would never normally do by the way

One consequence of 9/11 and the Iraq war, is that all
European based gliders over a MTOW of 500kg now have
to be insured at considerable extra cost against being
used for terrorist attacks. Somehow I can't imagine
that flying a Duo Discus into the Houses of Parliament
would do all that much damage!

Cheers,
Derek Copeland

Derek Copeland wrote:
Perhaps your remarks would be better directed at President
Bush,

---------------------------------
Hi Don (the universal expert on everything!).
Well at least he makes sense


We clash on another forum. I think that President Bush
would be too thick to understand my remarks anyway!
Well, given the quality of your arguments, it may not be entirely his fault.


I should make clear that most Americans, the ones I
have met anyway, are nice, likable people.
That should please them, I am sure.

How they collectively (although very marginally) managed to
elect George 'W' as President is therefore quite beyond
me!
If I am not mistaken, he plays in a game called politics and happens to
be the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth. Hardly a "bumbling
idiot", no matter what one thinks of his actions.


But then I thought that Bill Clinton was a good,
intelligent and sensible President (well he was partly
educated in the UK)
I am sure Bill is heartened by your approval.


whereas I gather the US 'Moral
Majority' didn't think much of him. I don't think much
of Tony Blair either by the way.
And bad luck to Tony.


We Brits. are extremely grateful for America's help
in World War II, without which we would probably now
be living in a totalitarian state, controlled by Germany.
Obviously we are more than happy to return the help
wherever we can, but only for legitimate wars.
It is reassuring to find people who can so confidently speak on behalf
of the nation as a whole. Or does the "we" refer only to the aged
"white Anglo-Saxons" (from your previous post)and not the more recent
immigrants that might not have been about back then and consequently
might not feel the same level of gratitude that you seem to express on
behalf of all.


The war against Iraq was never sanctioned by the United
Nations. In my opinion Saddam Hussain was more of a
blusterer than an actual threat to anybody outside
his own country.
Perhaps you could suggested it to the Iranians, 1.5 million dead, 100000
of that due to the weapons of mass destruction(Wikipedia) or Kuwaitis,
or the Kurds, but technically the latter were inside Iraq, so I may
concede that point. But as you say, he is just a blusterer.


While the UN weapons inspectors were
in Iraq and apparently making progress the Allies should
never have declared war on Iraq!

I never thought that invading Iraq would defeat 'Terrorism',
or make things better for the Iraqi people. In fact
it seems to have had entirely the opposite effects,
as so many Muslims were so angered by it, that they
are queuing up to be suicide bombers, even British
born ones!
Think of the Palestinian suicide bombers, the 9-11, sadly the queuing
was well and truly happening prior to the invasion of Iraq. Once the
ones with power and motives realised what an effective weapon they had,
it was always only a question of time.



Anyway, end of rant, but preventing the war was something
I cared passionately about at the time. I did all that
I could by writing letters to politicians and newspapers,
as well as taking part in protest marches - something
I would never normally do by the way
Well, if they were as well argued as your last two postings here, I am
not at all surprised that you did not convince anyone.



One consequence of 9/11 and the Iraq war, is that all
European based gliders over a MTOW of 500kg now have
to be insured at considerable extra cost against being
used for terrorist attacks.
Terrible, lets not worry about the draconian laws being enacted anywhere
and the subsequent loss of liberties taken for granted in western
democracies for a considerable period of time, lets concentrate on what
is really important - the rising cost of glider insurance.

Somehow I can't imagine
that flying a Duo Discus into the Houses of Parliament
would do all that much damage!
True, but how about the 100 kg of high explosives strapped in the back
seat? Hmmmm, what an attack platform, stealthy, hard to see and joy to
fly. Any terrorist would kill to use it.


So please, leave RAS free of your political passions, or at least mount
a better argument.

Cheers

Paul Bart