What is Purpose of Sports Class Nationals?

According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Hooboy this inquiring mind can't wait to see all that comes outta this
one!

Frank,

Here is the FAI purpose:
"7.7.6 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high
performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international
championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the
highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest
levels."

The problem arises with the "Entry" definition.
"The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is
that it is within the range of handicap factors agreed for the competition.
(AL7)"

The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders. This situation nullifies the "older high performance
gliders"/"inexpensive" phrase in the FAI purpose statement.

What is the common international handicap range of Club Class sailplanes?

Would limiting entries to older sailplanes increase, or decrease,
participation? What does the term "older" mean?

(Personally, I hesitate to enter contests flying mid 1960's technology.)

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Frank Paynter" wrote in message
...
According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Since I flew in the highest handicapped glider in Mifflin this year, I
am not one to comment. However if you attended the SRA meeting, you
would have a good understanding of the answer.

Where do we decide the handicap range for the Sports Class Nationals?
Because the Club Class Worlds are allowed to change, they allowed the
ASW24, and it had not been allowed before.

How many pilots flying the Sports Class Nationals have the intent of
making the US Team to fly in the Club Class? Not many, same in the
other classes.

The issue of tasking came up after Parowan last year and was discussed.
The outcome is discussed in the minutes (which nobody reads)
http://www.sailplane-racing.org/Rule...es%20Final.pdf
The tasks should be designed for the mid range gliders. At Mifflin I
thought they were, but I was not flying the Cirrus, I was flying the
80ft+ monster with the Iron thermal in the back. We did have a few days
where we were running out of room, and a Cirrus was much better suited.

The handicaps do a pretty good job of making gliders equal, however
there are times where you cannot beat performance. If we made a Club
Class Nationals to select the Club class team? How many gliders would
show up? There were 3 that showed up (Tim Welles won the Pinto trophy),
and I believe you need 8 for a Nationals. Maybe select the Club Class
Team from pilots flying Club class gliders.

Maybe there could be an incentive for a club class ship to show up? But
what about the glider that is right on the edge of the handicap, we
don't know 2 years before the Worlds what that handicap is going to be.
What if there is a change, and that pilot's glider is now out after
they have been selected for the pre-worlds.

What about keeping the Sports class just that....sport, but no
selection (would that keep poeple from comming?).

Having a Club Class Nationals....who will host it? it is already hard
to get organizations to host the ones we have now.

I am not being negative for the club class, I am actually for it, I
sold the D2ax with the intent of buying a Libelle. Mike and I almost
flew two Cirrus', but the Rotax crew is hard to beat. I am mearly
pointing out some problems that we have run into.

In article ,
"Wayne Paul" wrote:


The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders.

Haven't seen that problem here in the southeastern U.S. Current world
team member David Stevenson has campaigned his Ka-6 very successfully,
Obviously, he finishes most tasks in good time. Clearly, the
handicapping system has some flaws (what doesn't?) with some gliders
having relatively better handicaps, but that can change.

The winning gliders flown in the club class in Europe are often so
highly tuned or modified that they rival the cost of a much newer ship.

I relish the chance to fly with better pilots in better equipment.
Sometimes I even beat one or two of them. Limiting the U.S. Sports Class
to older ships would just diminish participation.

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Unfortunately, most of us that want to compete have job constraints,
etc. that prevent us from coming. I finally am close to being able to
make a contest per year. Would I go to a sports nationals... no. Too
many that are priviledged to fly a lot and practice a lot show up. I
heard one say that it's another nationals for the big guys. That's
fine, and I don't begrudge them that. I do admire the few that fly the
FAI classes and at least try to leave the crumbs for the neophytes and
wannabes. I would possibly try the nats if I won a regional. That would
blank my vacation for a year, so it's not likely. I do intend to fly
region 10 or region 9 sports next year... big dogs or not...

Jack Womack

Wallace Berry wrote:
In article ,
"Wayne Paul" wrote:


The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders.

Haven't seen that problem here in the southeastern U.S. Current world
team member David Stevenson has campaigned his Ka-6 very successfully,
Obviously, he finishes most tasks in good time. Clearly, the
handicapping system has some flaws (what doesn't?) with some gliders
having relatively better handicaps, but that can change.

The winning gliders flown in the club class in Europe are often so
highly tuned or modified that they rival the cost of a much newer ship.

I relish the chance to fly with better pilots in better equipment.
Sometimes I even beat one or two of them. Limiting the U.S. Sports Class
to older ships would just diminish participation.

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Wow - I've certainly come to the right place for informed responses to
my post! ;-). Replying to all previouis posts:

Thanks to 'gliderstud' (what a handle) and John Seaborn for the links
to ongoing discussions in this area - I read both carefully.

I'm still having problems with the stated purpose for the SC Nats vs
what is actually happening. Here in the U.S. we have a Std Nats, a 15m
Nats, an Open/18m Nats, a World Class Nats, and the SC Nats. In 2005,
the number of gliders entered we Std 23, 15m 47, 18m 22, Open 10,
World 13, SC 48. In 2006 so far, the SC Nats hosted 55 and the World
Class hosted 9. My point is, I don't believe there is any danger in
not havning enough SC pilots and gliders to show up to make a National
contest field if the high-priced glass is excluded, and the SSA has
already repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to support a National
Constest for a relatively small number of entrants. Regarding the
quality of the competition, I think it would be much more fun to have a
fighting chance to finish in the top half of the field than to be
doomed from the start to the (very) low end of the scale. It is my
personal belief that the reason pure SC pilots *do not* come to the SC
Nats is because they know they can't possibly win or even place well
(The Harris HIll SC Nats where Tim McAllister won in his Libelle was a
freak event - I was there and the weather was terrible - we set
records for the number of landouts. If the weather had been at all
reasonable, Tim would probably not have done as well).

In all these contests except the SC Nats, all the gliders have
essentially the same performance, so it is (in theory) the best pilot
that wins. In the SC Nats it is essentially impossible to tell whether
the best pilot or the most expensive glass is most significant, because
the range of gliders is so broad. In 2005 and 2006, the best a pure SC
pilot and plane did was 6th overall (Manfred Franke in 2005 with an
LS-3), and in 2006 about 27th overall (Tim Wells in a Std Cirrus). In
both years, the SC National Champion was won by a pilot or pilots in a
Duo Discus, with other high-priced glass close behind.

Why don't we try eliminating the Duo's and the ASW27s and the ASG-29's
from the equation at the SC Nats, or at least adjust the handicaps so
their pilots have to fly a lot harder than they do now to win. Let's
try the experiment. How do we know how many pure SC pilots & gliders
will show up if we don't try? If it doesn't work, we can change it
back.

Frank(X3)

Hi frank,

So where do I fly my Duo in a contest? I tried to get a 20 m contest
going in the Western US to no avail. Tom Knauff tried to get one going
a couple of years ago. IMHO the reason that the Duo wins is that some
guys are just a lot better than I am. I love to fly and love to fly
contests. With that said, it also needs to be said that, we really
don't have a Sports Class Nationals, we have a Handicapped Nationals!
Frank wrote:
Wow - I've certainly come to the right place for informed responses to
my post! ;-). Replying to all previouis posts:

Thanks to 'gliderstud' (what a handle) and John Seaborn for the links
to ongoing discussions in this area - I read both carefully.

I'm still having problems with the stated purpose for the SC Nats vs
what is actually happening. Here in the U.S. we have a Std Nats, a 15m
Nats, an Open/18m Nats, a World Class Nats, and the SC Nats. In 2005,
the number of gliders entered we Std 23, 15m 47, 18m 22, Open 10,
World 13, SC 48. In 2006 so far, the SC Nats hosted 55 and the World
Class hosted 9. My point is, I don't believe there is any danger in
not havning enough SC pilots and gliders to show up to make a National
contest field if the high-priced glass is excluded, and the SSA has
already repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to support a National
Constest for a relatively small number of entrants. Regarding the
quality of the competition, I think it would be much more fun to have a
fighting chance to finish in the top half of the field than to be
doomed from the start to the (very) low end of the scale. It is my
personal belief that the reason pure SC pilots *do not* come to the SC
Nats is because they know they can't possibly win or even place well
(The Harris HIll SC Nats where Tim McAllister won in his Libelle was a
freak event - I was there and the weather was terrible - we set
records for the number of landouts. If the weather had been at all
reasonable, Tim would probably not have done as well).

In all these contests except the SC Nats, all the gliders have
essentially the same performance, so it is (in theory) the best pilot
that wins. In the SC Nats it is essentially impossible to tell whether
the best pilot or the most expensive glass is most significant, because
the range of gliders is so broad. In 2005 and 2006, the best a pure SC
pilot and plane did was 6th overall (Manfred Franke in 2005 with an
LS-3), and in 2006 about 27th overall (Tim Wells in a Std Cirrus). In
both years, the SC National Champion was won by a pilot or pilots in a
Duo Discus, with other high-priced glass close behind.

Why don't we try eliminating the Duo's and the ASW27s and the ASG-29's
from the equation at the SC Nats, or at least adjust the handicaps so
their pilots have to fly a lot harder than they do now to win. Let's
try the experiment. How do we know how many pure SC pilots & gliders
will show up if we don't try? If it doesn't work, we can change it
back.

Frank(X3)

Wallace Berry wrote:

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Well, they are supposed to improve low-speed handling and thermalling
performance by reducing induced drag, while not costing anything at the
high end of the speed range. I think they actually do improve
performance as advertised, but I don't have any hard data to support
this, other than the wind tunnel & flight data obtained in by the folks
who adapted the LS-8 winglets to the LS-4.

But hey, they *do* look cool! ;-).

Frank(X3)

Frank wrote:
Wallace Berry wrote:

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Well, they are supposed to improve low-speed handling and thermalling
performance by reducing induced drag, while not costing anything at the
high end of the speed range. I think they actually do improve
performance as advertised, but I don't have any hard data to support
this, other than the wind tunnel & flight data obtained in by the folks
who adapted the LS-8 winglets to the LS-4.

But hey, they *do* look cool! ;-).

Frank(X3)

There's also been increased interest in the Sports Class nationals
since the national trophy was endowed in 1999. National trophy
endowments are about $5000 for transport and preservation of a place
for the champion's name.

Frank Whiteley