Cloud Flying

Viewed the discussion on cloud flying. I have been
cloud flying in sailplanes for over 15 yrs....IMC flying
that is. Currently I have a Nimbus 3, modified to 26
M with an EFIS. Cloud flying is legal in the USA as
long as you have a clearance in controlled airspace
and the required equipment as per the manufacture.
I recommend gyro instruments as well; furthermore,
it’s not for everyone!

It is dangerous, unless you have the required instruments
and the training and qualifications. Having a caviler
attitude by just being sucked up into a towering Cu,
is asking for trouble and you may cause a midair collision.
Understanding, no airplane pilot will b e flying through
a tower Cu....however, do not do it unless you are
qualified.

It is very enjoyable as well and exhilarating!

For the Far 61.57, that addresses to carry passengers
only. So, if you are solo, that section of the regs
does not apply.

I will be submitting a short article to soaring in
the next few weeks on the subject. I am completing
a training booklet on the subject. Also, hope to be
able to give a short talk/presentation at the 2007
convention. Would enjoy answering any questions you
may have.

Shawn

Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop
Shawn Knickerbocker wrote:
Viewed the discussion on cloud flying. I have been
cloud flying in sailplanes for over 15 yrs....IMC flying
that is. Currently I have a Nimbus 3, modified to 26
M with an EFIS. Cloud flying is legal in the USA as
long as you have a clearance in controlled airspace
and the required equipment as per the manufacture.
I recommend gyro instruments as well; furthermore,
it's not for everyone!

It is dangerous, unless you have the required instruments
and the training and qualifications. Having a caviler
attitude by just being sucked up into a towering Cu,
is asking for trouble and you may cause a midair collision.
Understanding, no airplane pilot will b e flying through
a tower Cu....however, do not do it unless you are
qualified.

It is very enjoyable as well and exhilarating!

For the Far 61.57, that addresses to carry passengers
only. So, if you are solo, that section of the regs
does not apply.

I will be submitting a short article to soaring in
the next few weeks on the subject. I am completing
a training booklet on the subject. Also, hope to be
able to give a short talk/presentation at the 2007
convention. Would enjoy answering any questions you
may have.

Shawn

Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Good questions, jacekkobiesa.

Shawn, I thought of another IFR glider question. So you tow up, the
ceiling is around 2500agl, there's lift, you get your clearance, climb
into the clouds, fly around on whatever kind of clearance it is you
get, and the ceiling drops down to say, still VFR, but it drops to
1000'AGL. How does an IFR glider make an approach, or even get down to
minimum vectoring altitude? I'm curious what the the local controllers,
who are protecting their airspace, what pages in the TERPS Manual do
they flip to? Curious.

C'mon you USA IFR glider pilots, jump in here. I know they cloud fly
elsewhere in the world, but I think we'd all like to hear how to do it
here at home.

snoop


wrote:
snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.


Brian wrote:
Regarding approved instruments in gliders...

For in the US Try Reading the FAR's, I may have missed something, But I
can find no FAR that requires any instruments for unpowered aircraft(
FAR 91.205 is for powered aircraft only.)
If it is not required it certainly does not need to be approved. Type
Data sheets and/or the Manfacturer in the US may have there own
requirements.

On the other hand if you are going to fly Class A,B or C airspace then
a TSO Transponder is certainly required (Unless you have obtained a
Waiver) by FAR 91.215 along with the required inspections for it.

Brian



snoop wrote:
Shawn,

Thank you for this information. I've been wondering about this very
subject. I'm just curious if you have discussed this with your local
FSDO, and or any local air traffic controllers. I'm still looking for
the reg that says gliders don't have to have the required 24 month
checks on their xponder, static system, etc. Where do I find that?

Also, your efis equipment, is it approved equipment? I'm sure it's not,
say, some of that efis equipment that homebuilders are putting in their
ships. The equipment in your panel has to be approved for IFR flight
doesn't it? I know it looks and works great, but a lot, most of its'
not approved for IFR flight.

Also, when you receive your ATC clearance, how does the controller give
you an altitude? In what format?

There are a lot of questions that I need to answer about IFR flight in
gliders. I know my local Flight Standard Districto Office would have
questions for me if I didn't do it right.

I look forward to your article, and your answers.

Snoop

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

Jacek,

I'm anxiously awaiting the article as well! Until it is, though, here
are some tasty morsels:

There aren't any FAR's that clearly say: "To fly a glider under IFR,
you must..." But there are some regs that we can correlate together to
find that, yes, flying a glider under IFR is completely legal. Such
as:

There is no instrument rating available for gliders, as is specified by
CFAR § 61.5(b)(8):

§ 61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than
student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the
training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates
only)-
(i) Instrument-Airplane.
(ii) Instrument-Helicopter.
(iii) Instrument-Powered-lift.


But, CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a pilot can get certified to fly a
glider under IFR:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.


And, CFAR § 61.57(c)(2) specifies the recent pilot experience needed
to act as PIC in a glider under IFR:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather
conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the
preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-

(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1 1/2 hours
may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be
carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is
to be carried.


Furthermore, CFAR § 61.57(d)(1)(iii) specifies how a glider pilot can
get an instrument competency check:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience
requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed
time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not
serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than
the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument
proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks
required by the instrument rating practical test.
(1) The instrument proficiency check must be-
(iii) For a glider, in a single-engine airplane or a glider.


As far as inspections are concerned, CFAR § 91.413(a) does not exempt
gliders from the 24-month transponder inspection requirement:

§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in
91.215(a), 121.345(c), or §135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within
the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested
and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this
chapter.


But the altimeter inspection required by CFAR § 91.411 only applies to
airplanes and helicopters:

§ 91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and
inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless- snip


Equipment requirements to certify your glider for IFR flight are
determined by the manufacturer, and the FAA. If you certify your
glider with an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate, you will need to
comply with your certificate's limitations, just like any other
experimantal aircraft.


As far as the procedure for receiving your IFR clearance is concerned,
you can use any approved method, there aren't any special procedures
for gliders.


And, FYI, I just visited the Schempp-Hirth factory last week where I
saw a beautiful new IFR-certified Ventus with a US registration. Yes,
it's legal.

Chris Fleming, F2





wrote:

Yeah, IFR it is....I am very curious about that article, will you
include all the FAR's and AIM's for glider flight in IMC? How about
xponder check out every 24 months? How about the instrument rating? Is
one available for a glider? And yeah, how about the clearance? Do you
get a pop-up clearance or , since you are not flying from controlled
airport simply have a void time? I would like to be educated in all of
those aspects.

Thanks,

Jacek
Washington State

I fully understood that we were talking IFR Flight.

The only additional requirement I can find for IFR flight in Class G
airspace is that the pilot be instrument rated and Current. Note: that
an airplane instrument rating is valid in a glider.

I was recently flying with a group of 15 glider pilots I believe at
least 3 of these pilots also had instrument ratings.

In Class D & E airspace a Clearance is a also required.

In Class ABC Airspace a Transponder is required with the current
inspections.

I am looking forward to seeing his book on cloud flying, This is
defiently a topic that does not get much attention in the US and as
result there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it as evidenced
by this thread.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL






snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.

Brian, I have my FAR/AIM book open. In part 91, give me the glider
specific regs that tell me how to fly a glider, on an IFR clearance in
the US. I just reread the requirements for an instrument rating, and
nowhere does the word glider show up in FAR 61.65. Shawn, help us out
here.

F2, thanks for your input, but were shaking down the US regs here.


Brian wrote:
I fully understood that we were talking IFR Flight.

The only additional requirement I can find for IFR flight in Class G
airspace is that the pilot be instrument rated and Current. Note: that
an airplane instrument rating is valid in a glider.

I was recently flying with a group of 15 glider pilots I believe at
least 3 of these pilots also had instrument ratings.

In Class D & E airspace a Clearance is a also required.

In Class ABC Airspace a Transponder is required with the current
inspections.

I am looking forward to seeing his book on cloud flying, This is
defiently a topic that does not get much attention in the US and as
result there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it as evidenced
by this thread.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL






snoop wrote:
Son, we're talking IFR flight here. Try reading the first post.