visual contact with other traffic

Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

Marc

"Marc Adler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

Marc


There usually isn't more that one aircraft at say your 11 o'clock two miles.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

There usually isn't more that one aircraft at say your 11 o'clock two miles.

The pilots say things like "See traffic at 12 o'clock, but can't tell
if it's a regional carrier or not. Please advise." This sounds like the
pilot is expecting to be able to recognize the plane.

Marc

"Marc Adler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

There usually isn't more that one aircraft at say your 11 o'clock two
miles.

The pilots say things like "See traffic at 12 o'clock, but can't tell
if it's a regional carrier or not. Please advise." This sounds like the
pilot is expecting to be able to recognize the plane.

Marc


He probably can't tell if it is a regional jet or a corporate jet. You'd be
amazed what you can see from two miles in the air.

"Marc Adler" wrote in message
oups.com...
The pilots say things like "See traffic at 12 o'clock, but can't tell
if it's a regional carrier or not. Please advise." This sounds like the
pilot is expecting to be able to recognize the plane.

At two miles, it's usually the case that one can recognize the general type
of aircraft. Distinguishing a twin turboprop from a single-engined piston
plane, for example. But it's dependent on a variety of things, including
the pilot's own vision (only required to be corrected to 20/40) and ambient
conditions (whether the called traffic is viewed against the sky or ground,
current visibility, position of the sun, etc.). Two miles is certainly
getting toward the edge of reliable identification.

Generally speaking, a clarification request from ATC such as what you've
heard resolves the question. A pilot can go ahead and proceed following the
traffic they believe to be the correct traffic, and with the request for
clarification ATC knows to keep an eye on things and make sure the pilot is
following the traffic they expected them to (if ATC has a radar display,
this can be done quite easily).

Pete

Marc Adler wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

There usually isn't more that one aircraft at say your 11 o'clock two miles.

The pilots say things like "See traffic at 12 o'clock, but can't tell
if it's a regional carrier or not. Please advise." This sounds like the
pilot is expecting to be able to recognize the plane.

Marc

I can say that I've never said or heard anything like that. Like Gig
pointed out, there usually aren't multiple planes in the same
coordinates in the air. If I see my traffic where ATC says it is, I
don't really care what kind of plane it is. Obviously, if ATC says I'm
following a 737 on final and all I see in front of my is a Citation, I'm
going to question ATC (where IS that 737?), but it's generally not an issue.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in message
...
There usually isn't more that one aircraft at say your 11 o'clock two
miles.

In a relatively busy airspace, there may well be more than one aircraft
close enough to the 11 o'clock at two miles for there to be a question.
Clock directions are very low precision, due to the facts that there's 30
degrees between each direction, ATC doesn't actually know your heading, and
all of the traffic is constantly in motion.

On 20 Sep 2006 12:53:20 -0700, "Marc Adler"
wrote:

Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

Marc


On my first cross country heading into our 1st destination I was
advised by the controller to watch for a Tomahawk crossing our path.
The instructor asked me if I saw it & I pointed at a plane in the
right spot with a T tail.

He (rather dryly) remarked that what I was pointing was actually a DC9
.


H.

In article .com,
"Marc Adler" wrote:

Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

In most cases, there is usually a lag between when the radar illuminated
by the radar and when the processed image is displayed on the radar
screen. Hence, when the controller calls traffic, the traffic has
actually moved to a different position when you look where you were
told. Depending on the speed, altitude and distance, you may or may not
find it in your field of view.

"Marc Adler" wrote in news:1158781999.937045.277410
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

Marc


You're listening to what seems to be a frequency for ATC on JFK Airport's
Final Approach.

Typically, when the weather is clear, pilots are instructed to follow
other traffic on a "visual approach", meaning (without getting into too
much detail) that they can visually see the traffic they are instructed to
follow, until they can see the runway they are landing on. On a clear day,
with only a few planes in "line" this is not a difficult problem. If tower
tells you you're #2 behind an RJ on a 3 mile final, and you're 5 miles
out, it's pretty easy to know where to look for the RJ, and that you are
looking for a jet, even if you don't know an RJ from a Hawker.

Sometimes, though, when it is really clear, and traffic is being routed in
from multiple directions, a plane coming in from an "angle" may be
instructed to "cut in" between two other planes for their turn. So if you
are "#3 behind a hawker" you may see only one plane in front of you when
you expect to see 2, and you may see #4 coming in (sometimes it's hard to
judge distance up there) and wonder if you're supposed to fit in behind
him or in front of him...

Did you miss a little plane on short final and you are supposed to cut in?
Or do you need to slow down a bit or curve around a bit to make sure to
space yourself behind that guy on the left?

Better to ask than to wonder...