Almost Taken to the cleaners!

Grreetings!!

I am returning to aircraft ownership after 15 years. the other day, I
was looking to purchase an airplane that I saw advertised. The price
and features looked real good, EVERYTHING i wanted!! except it had a
run out engine. over 2100 hrs.

they we're asking about $ 28,000 for the plane (cessna 150 with all the
bells) I thought the price was good??? was actualy going to purchase
the plane. I called the seller and we spoke a bit on the phone. told
them I was VERY intrested and would give an offer.

Putzing around last night, surfing the web I found out about AOPA's
Vref and NAAA evaluator. Just for FUN I entered the information on
the plane for $ 28,000

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the airplane was only ( V ref & NAAA) worth $
12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

The other features such as STOL, extra fuel , good radios, added little
tto no value to the basic airplane!

When I called the seller to day with my FAIR offer of $ 18,000 dollars
CASH for the above plane he went NUTS! and started to go crazy on
me, get mad, cussing, etc, etc, etc,

I told him the Vref and NAAA numbers but he went into orbit ( think he
has had others say the same bad news)

I told him that I was NOT trying to Ripp him off , but trying to pay a
FAIR price for his plane.

Am I wrong or out of line in this matter?? I think that if a BANK, or
insurance company is only going to loan / insure $ 12,500 to 13,500
dollars for an airplane then THATS all its TRULY WORTH!!!

I think my offer of $ 18,000 dollars CASH was more than fair for the
plane. that's $ 4500 bucks over the Vref and NAAA value.

PLEASE provide comments if I am wrong in this matter, then I can re
-offer but some how I think someone is looking for a fish to fry!

THANK GOD for V ref & trade a plane NAAA as I would have paid the
$ 28, grand give or take!

P.S. The BEST price that I got for and Overhaul is $ 9,000 grand using
the existing I engine.

wise purchaser wrote:
Grreetings!!

I am returning to aircraft ownership after 15 years. the other day, I
was looking to purchase an airplane that I saw advertised. The price
and features looked real good, EVERYTHING i wanted!! except it had a
run out engine. over 2100 hrs.

they we're asking about $ 28,000 for the plane (cessna 150 with all the
bells) I thought the price was good??? was actualy going to purchase
the plane. I called the seller and we spoke a bit on the phone. told
them I was VERY intrested and would give an offer.

Putzing around last night, surfing the web I found out about AOPA's
Vref and NAAA evaluator. Just for FUN I entered the information on
the plane for $ 28,000

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the airplane was only ( V ref & NAAA) worth $
12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

The other features such as STOL, extra fuel , good radios, added little
tto no value to the basic airplane!

When I called the seller to day with my FAIR offer of $ 18,000 dollars
CASH for the above plane he went NUTS! and started to go crazy on
me, get mad, cussing, etc, etc, etc,

I told him the Vref and NAAA numbers but he went into orbit ( think he
has had others say the same bad news)

I told him that I was NOT trying to Ripp him off , but trying to pay a
FAIR price for his plane.

Am I wrong or out of line in this matter?? I think that if a BANK, or
insurance company is only going to loan / insure $ 12,500 to 13,500
dollars for an airplane then THATS all its TRULY WORTH!!!

I think my offer of $ 18,000 dollars CASH was more than fair for the
plane. that's $ 4500 bucks over the Vref and NAAA value.

PLEASE provide comments if I am wrong in this matter, then I can re
-offer but some how I think someone is looking for a fish to fry!

THANK GOD for V ref & trade a plane NAAA as I would have paid the
$ 28, grand give or take!

P.S. The BEST price that I got for and Overhaul is $ 9,000 grand using
the existing I engine.

I used Vref once for the airplane I own. Then I paid an appraiser to do
the job (insurance issue)and Vref was generous. I really believe the
appraised value was more in line.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

wise purchaser wrote:


WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the airplane was only ( V ref & NAAA) worth $
12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

The other features such as STOL, extra fuel , good radios, added little
tto no value to the basic airplane!

Vref and the Trade-A-Plane evaluator notoriously give inflated values
for airplanes. Without knowing the particulars of this individual case,
I'd say there's a good chance those values are *still* above fair market
value.

My personal preference for online evaluations is
http://www.aeroprice.com. They're not free, but the cost is minimal
compared to the potential for overpaying. I have no vested interest. I
have to admit it's been a few years since I've used them.

Dave

Dave Butler wrote:
wise purchaser wrote:


WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the airplane was only ( V ref & NAAA) worth $
12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

The other features such as STOL, extra fuel , good radios, added little
tto no value to the basic airplane!

Vref and the Trade-A-Plane evaluator notoriously give inflated values
for airplanes. Without knowing the particulars of this individual case,
I'd say there's a good chance those values are *still* above fair market
value.



Its also regional. On the West coast you'll usually pay more than Vref
as that is what the market is doing. Lots of great deals on the East
coast (especially Florida).

-Robert

The plane evaluators tend to quote values that are way overpriced, much
like the "retail" price of cars.

Planes are worth what someone will pay for them. Unfortunately, there
are many buyers like your "former" self who have credit and no
information. They fall in love with the thought of owning an airplane
and just go out and buy one. This is tending to keep prices much higher
than they should be. The limited supply makes the problem worse.

Using a little trick I call "math", I figure a runout that is worth say,
$50k ready to go (with a fresh engine) and costs $20k for a complete
overhaul is only worth $30k. That concept seems lost on runout sellers
who price their planes as if they had fresh or mid time engines.

Sadly, if you really shop around, do your homework, have the planes
carefully inspected, and offer a fair price, chances are good that some
fool with more money than brains will buy it up from under you.

As I said, many owners are under the mistaken impression that they have
some God given right to buy an airplane at an inflated price, run it
out, and then make a tidy sum selling it. On the other side of the coin,
there are many, many tire kickers out there who don't have a clue about
how they will get the money for an airplane but insist on pulling
everyone's chain posing as prepared buyers.

Perhaps the current market slowdown will bring the overly optimistic
owners down to earth. 28 grand for a runout 150? Yeah, right.

Good Luck,
Mike


I am returning to aircraft ownership after 15 years. the other day, I
was looking to purchase an airplane that I saw advertised. The price
and features looked real good, EVERYTHING i wanted!! except it had a
run out engine. over 2100 hrs.

they we're asking about $ 28,000 for the plane (cessna 150 with all the
bells) I thought the price was good??? was actualy going to purchase
the plane. I called the seller and we spoke a bit on the phone. told
them I was VERY intrested and would give an offer.

Putzing around last night, surfing the web I found out about AOPA's
Vref and NAAA evaluator. Just for FUN I entered the information on
the plane for $ 28,000

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the airplane was only ( V ref & NAAA) worth $
12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

On 2006-09-22, wise purchaser wrote:
run out engine. over 2100 hrs.

12, 500 to 13,500 bucks! the run out engine hurt the value of the
plane big time !

Yep, the engine is a huge cost to overhaul and its condition has a
dramatic effect on airplane valuation. And sellers are reluctant to
take it into account. I looked at a lot of planes while shopping, and
I don't think I saw any that were sufficiently discounted for tired
engines, but you can bet the owners who were fresh out of an overhaul
were looking to recoup every cent. The best deals seemed to be in
mid-time engines, where the shock of overhaul was in the past (and
priced lower at the time), but the engine still has a lot of time left.

The other features such as STOL, extra fuel , good radios, added little
tto no value to the basic airplane!

Good radios do add value, but there's not that much market for a little
trainer with a super IFR setup. An HSI costs the same to add to a 152
or a 182, but it has a lot more utility in a 182, and buyers will realize
that.

When I called the seller to day with my FAIR offer of $ 18,000 dollars
CASH for the above plane he went NUTS! and started to go crazy on
me, get mad, cussing, etc, etc, etc,

Well, did you make him an offer for $10k more first? I'd be ****ed if
someone negotiated with me and then chopped 1/3rd off their offer.

P.S. The BEST price that I got for and Overhaul is $ 9,000 grand using
the existing I engine.

Are you counting all the labor to take it off, ship it, put it back on,
replace all the misc parts that will come up at the same time? And the
months of downtime?

If you DO buy it (or any high-time engine plane), don't overhaul it just
because of hours... Just take the run time into account if something
comes up that calls for a lesser repair if you think that the lesser
repair would outlast the rest of the engine.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

Ben Jackson wrote:



Well, did you make him an offer for $10k more first? I'd be ****ed if
someone negotiated with me and then chopped 1/3rd off their offer.

But if you're not in the ballpark as a seller to start with you better
have thick skin.

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:51:17 -0600, Newps wrote:



Ben Jackson wrote:



Well, did you make him an offer for $10k more first? I'd be ****ed if
someone negotiated with me and then chopped 1/3rd off their offer.

But if you're not in the ballpark as a seller to start with you better
have thick skin.

Why would I need a thick skin? If the person on the other end can
present their case in a professional and calm manner I'll listen. If
they can't even if they are willing to meet my price I hang up.

Sure, I'd sell the Deb which is the oldest of its type in existence
for a slightly exorbitant price which means the purchaser would need
to want it more than I do. Always stored inside, but still needs
paint. After a 1000 hours the upholstery looks pretty good but still
needs work, the engine only has a few hundred to TBO and doesn't even
require adding oil between changes, and the radios are elaborate for
their time, but that was a long time ago.:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message
...

Why would I need a thick skin? If the person on the other end can
present their case in a professional and calm manner I'll listen. If
they can't even if they are willing to meet my price I hang up.

Sure, I'd sell the Deb which is the oldest of its type in existence
for a slightly exorbitant price which means the purchaser would need
to want it more than I do.

Hmmm...Roger, you just stated the basis of the Austrian school of Economics
(Free Market, now most commonly known as the Chicago School).
Buyers/Sellers, employers/employees, it all fits.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 16:56:58 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message
.. .

Why would I need a thick skin? If the person on the other end can
present their case in a professional and calm manner I'll listen. If
they can't even if they are willing to meet my price I hang up.

Sure, I'd sell the Deb which is the oldest of its type in existence
for a slightly exorbitant price which means the purchaser would need
to want it more than I do.

Hmmm...Roger, you just stated the basis of the Austrian school of Economics
(Free Market, now most commonly known as the Chicago School).
Buyers/Sellers, employers/employees, it all fits.

When I was a project manager I ran my meetings the same way. No
shouting, no swearing, and no berating. I adhered to the old "That's
once, That's twice"... and the meeting was over. It didn't even matter
if we had a deadline. I got called on the carpet the first time I did
that. I gave my reasons and never had to worry about it again. When
the dust settled I never had to worry about meetings getting out of
hand again either. :-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com