Black Boxes for GA Aircraft...Good or Bad?

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


'BLACK BOXES' SOON AVAILABLE FOR CIRRUS AIRPLANES
A Massachusetts manufacturer, which was developing an engine trend
monitoring device for an air taxi operator now using Cirrus Design
aircraft, has expanded the product to a $5,000 flight data recorder or
"black box" for the Cirrus SR20 and SR22 models. The device, made by
Alakai Technologies of Hopkinton, Massachusetts, can help owners by
providing easily downloadable engine performance data, but will also
aid insurance company investigations of fault in aircraft accidents. It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. The 3.5-pound device should receive a supplemental type
certificate from the FAA as early as December. The air taxi operator
will become the launch customer for the always-on Digital Flight Data
System. It can record information such as engine performance, rate of
climb or descent, true and indicated airspeed, heading, altitude,
engine trends, miles per gallon, and GPS navigation waypoints. There
have been initial discussions between Alakai and Cirrus Design about
the device. It will be manufactured for Alakai by another Massachusetts
company, Accent Technologies, located in North Andover.

Greengears,

Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Greengears,

Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!

But most of us already do have black boxes. My GPS tracks my
course/speed/altitude/etc for about a year back. My EDM tracks all my
engine trends, all EGTs, fuel flows, CHTs, event OAT (in case I was in
an ice accident).
It wouldn't be hard for the NTSB to get as much info from my plane as
the 80's era black boxes provided.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Greengears,


Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!


But most of us already do have black boxes. My GPS tracks my
course/speed/altitude/etc for about a year back. My EDM tracks all my
engine trends, all EGTs, fuel flows, CHTs, event OAT (in case I was in
an ice accident).
It wouldn't be hard for the NTSB to get as much info from my plane as
the 80's era black boxes provided.

That assumes it survives the wreck.

Matt

Matt Whiting writes:

That assumes it survives the wreck.

Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
device will survive intact.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
That assumes it survives the wreck.

Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
device will survive intact.

We designed something similar a few years back (still being evaluated
by the SE FSDO, I believe) although our goal was long-term recording of
stress on the airframe. We designed it to include optional aircraft
data, but your average 30 year old C-172 or Warrior just doesn't have
much in the way of electrical data to record. None of the usual stuff
(control position) is there.

You could instrument everything of course, the the price would be
prohibitive (i.e. no one would pay for it).

While we were most interested in things like pulling so many G's that
the wings came off, the FAA rejected our first design because we could
potentially lose the last 100 ms. or so of data (i.e. the actual crash,
after the wings pulled off). We hadn't considered that important (it's
sort of "after the fact"), but they pointed out that in a lot of
mountain crashes the first sign of a problem is hitting the mountain.
We implemented a ferro-ram buffer (in front of the main storage) - both
non-volatile. Even if the pins got pulled off the IC, the die could
still be read (with difficulty).

I have no need for one. $5000 for something that adds nothing to
safety and will not prevent the main cause of plane crashes...pilot
error.

Ron Lee

On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears"
wrote:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


... It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. ...

Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
cost to insure one of those things otherwise?

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

RK Henry

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

"Save up to $1000, or more!"

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"RK Henry" wrote in message
...
On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears"
wrote:

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


... It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. ...

Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
cost to insure one of those things otherwise?


$15K/year or thereabouts.

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

You could ask your agent...but don't get your hopes up.:)


RK Henry

John Severyn
@KLVK