Courious Crash

Sunday evening, 17 December, a small plane crashed two miles south of
the Bucyrus Ohio airport (17G). A family of four (father, mother, two
children) died in the crash. There was minor damage to an apartment
building from flying debris, and no injuries to those on the ground.
The husband and wife are reported to have been pilot rated and
preliminary reports describe the aircraft as a 60's/70's Comanche.
Witnesses on the ground reported the engine sputtering and seeing sparks
coming from the airplane prior to the crash.
The aircraft had departed Oklahoma earlier in the afternoon.

Q: what are the possible ranges of various models of Comanche's?

My speculation...
Oklahoma to Bucyrus Ohio is a long haul. If the engine is sputtering, I
am guessing fuel exhaustion.
That it was within two miles of the airport makes me strongly think they
were stretching it.
Tulsa OK to Bucyrus OH is 665 nm. Fuel burn on a Comanche 260 is what?
14 per hour?
Cruise speed is 160 kts?
That gives about five hours and 700 nm.
How close am I?

14 per hour is what I use for planning in a Comanche 260. With aux
tanks, we're talking about 84 gallons usable. 84/14 = 6 hours of
cruise at 155 kts. = 930nm to dry tanks.

If there were no aux tanks, that's 56 gallons usable/14 = 4 hrs x 155
kts = 620nm.. with a tailwind, you just might run dry slightly short of
the airport in that scenario.

I've also noticed that line folks often leave the tanks less than
completely topped due to the nature of the tanks looking full when they
still have room. A few weeks back, I called the lineman back to the
plane and he added 5 gallons after "topping it off" earlier. Maybe
that's a bit "anal" but on a night/IFR flight from Oakland, CA to
Phoenix I want all the fuel I can get... that's an extra 22 minutes of
cruise.

--Dan


john smith wrote:
Sunday evening, 17 December, a small plane crashed two miles south of
the Bucyrus Ohio airport (17G). A family of four (father, mother, two
children) died in the crash. There was minor damage to an apartment
building from flying debris, and no injuries to those on the ground.
The husband and wife are reported to have been pilot rated and
preliminary reports describe the aircraft as a 60's/70's Comanche.
Witnesses on the ground reported the engine sputtering and seeing sparks
coming from the airplane prior to the crash.
The aircraft had departed Oklahoma earlier in the afternoon.

Q: what are the possible ranges of various models of Comanche's?

My speculation...
Oklahoma to Bucyrus Ohio is a long haul. If the engine is sputtering, I
am guessing fuel exhaustion.
That it was within two miles of the airport makes me strongly think they
were stretching it.
Tulsa OK to Bucyrus OH is 665 nm. Fuel burn on a Comanche 260 is what?
14 per hour?
Cruise speed is 160 kts?
That gives about five hours and 700 nm.
How close am I?

I've also noticed that line folks often leave the tanks less than
completely topped due to the nature of the tanks looking full when they
still have room.

If a tank is completely topped off in the cool evening air, how much gas
will pour overboard when the wing heats up in the noonday sun?

I know - "it depends". Let's take as an example a cherokee 24 gallon
wing, 45 degrees at night, 80 degrees under hot spring sun. Or
something similar. Could one lose more than a gallon per tank?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
john smith wrote:

Sunday evening, 17 December, a small plane crashed two miles south of
the Bucyrus Ohio airport (17G). A family of four (father, mother, two
children) died in the crash. There was minor damage to an apartment
building from flying debris, and no injuries to those on the ground.
The husband and wife are reported to have been pilot rated and
preliminary reports describe the aircraft as a 60's/70's Comanche.
Witnesses on the ground reported the engine sputtering and seeing sparks
coming from the airplane prior to the crash.
The aircraft had departed Oklahoma earlier in the afternoon.

Q: what are the possible ranges of various models of Comanche's?

My speculation...
Oklahoma to Bucyrus Ohio is a long haul. If the engine is sputtering, I
am guessing fuel exhaustion.
That it was within two miles of the airport makes me strongly think they
were stretching it.
Tulsa OK to Bucyrus OH is 665 nm. Fuel burn on a Comanche 260 is what?
14 per hour?
Cruise speed is 160 kts?
That gives about five hours and 700 nm.
How close am I?

I have never had an engine "sputter" when a tank goes dry! They just
quit until you switch tanks.

("Orval Fairbairn" wrote)
I have never had an engine "sputter" when a tank goes dry! They just quit
until you switch tanks.


....plus the "sparks" before the crash. ???


Montblack

In a previous article, "Montblack" said:
("Orval Fairbairn" wrote)
I have never had an engine "sputter" when a tank goes dry! They just quit
until you switch tanks.


...plus the "sparks" before the crash. ???

One truth of NTSB reports is that non-pilot witnesses are *never*
reliable.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
But seriously, I've got root, so it's his problem.
-- Nick Manka

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Montblack" said:
("Orval Fairbairn" wrote)
I have never had an engine "sputter" when a tank goes dry! They just quit
until you switch tanks.


...plus the "sparks" before the crash. ???

One truth of NTSB reports is that non-pilot witnesses are *never*
reliable.


Statements asserting "always" or "never" are always wrong!

"John Clonts" wrote in message
ups.com...

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Montblack"
said:
("Orval Fairbairn" wrote)
I have never had an engine "sputter" when a tank goes dry! They just
quit
until you switch tanks.


...plus the "sparks" before the crash. ???

One truth of NTSB reports is that non-pilot witnesses are *never*
reliable.


Statements asserting "always" or "never" are always wrong!


And never right.

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:51:14 -0800, john smith wrote
(in article ):

Sunday evening, 17 December, a small plane crashed two miles south of
the Bucyrus Ohio airport (17G). A family of four (father, mother, two
children) died in the crash. There was minor damage to an apartment
building from flying debris, and no injuries to those on the ground.
The husband and wife are reported to have been pilot rated and
preliminary reports describe the aircraft as a 60's/70's Comanche.
Witnesses on the ground reported the engine sputtering and seeing sparks
coming from the airplane prior to the crash.
The aircraft had departed Oklahoma earlier in the afternoon.

Q: what are the possible ranges of various models of Comanche's?

My speculation...
Oklahoma to Bucyrus Ohio is a long haul. If the engine is sputtering, I
am guessing fuel exhaustion.
That it was within two miles of the airport makes me strongly think they
were stretching it.
Tulsa OK to Bucyrus OH is 665 nm. Fuel burn on a Comanche 260 is what?
14 per hour?
Cruise speed is 160 kts?
That gives about five hours and 700 nm.
How close am I?


Who knows? No one here knows any more about it than anyone else. We do not
even know if they stopped to refuel along the way. You don't know when the
oil was last changed, what kind of weather briefing he got, when the last
annual was, the condition of the electrical system, or anything else. So it
seems to be going out on a limb to be immediately suspecting fuel exhaustion.

Pilots in general have a pretty good idea of how far they can fly on a full
tank and they do not intentionally stretch it. Most of the guys who get in
trouble with fuel exhaustion seem to be people who encounter unexpected
headwinds, had to divert to another airport for some reason, or who did not
find fuel where they expected it.

So, I would not assume fuel exhaustion right off the bat. In fact, from the
facts given, I would not assume anything.

One thing I do know -- these people had family and friends, some of whom
might read these news groups.

In article m,
says...



Who knows? No one here knows any more about it than anyone else. We do not
even know if they stopped to refuel along the way. You don't know when the
oil was last changed, what kind of weather briefing he got, when the last
annual was, the condition of the electrical system, or anything else. So it
seems to be going out on a limb to be immediately suspecting fuel exhaustion.

Pilots in general have a pretty good idea of how far they can fly on a full
tank and they do not intentionally stretch it. Most of the guys who get in
trouble with fuel exhaustion seem to be people who encounter unexpected
headwinds, had to divert to another airport for some reason, or who did not
find fuel where they expected it.

So, I would not assume fuel exhaustion right off the bat. In fact, from the
facts given, I would not assume anything.

One thing I do know -- these people had family and friends, some of whom
might read these news groups.


I agree with your post.
I do not agree with those who regularly post that it is unacceptable to
speculate or even to discuss possible causes until all the factual information
has been processed. I think it is useful, interesting and natural - but I
agree with you that early speculation must be respectful of what is a tragedy
for a circle of individuals.

The information given here is indeed very sparse. My initial question was the
same - did they stop to refuel? We don't know anything about their fuel
management scenario. Perhaps they started "nearly full" with the intention to
refuel somewhere, and that didn't work out. Perhaps there's no fuel management
question at all. Won't take much on the factual side to confirm or reject this
possible cause. The initial post is a compelling theory until the factual
information does that.

As for witness accounts - how many KingAir accidents have witness accounts of
the engine "missing"? Impressive events are something like dreams - we
remember sketchy things and "fill-in" the details.

GF