My engine quit!

I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test
key out of my cold, lifeless hands.
-- Simon Travaglia

The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died.

It's a good thing Jay wasn't cleard to land behind you. That would be
another massive thread.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

Thanks for this one, Paul.
This situation hadn't occured to me, but it's one I could easily
encounter with either the Arrow or the Cherokee Six I fly.
Tip of the hat!

john smith wrote:

This situation hadn't occured to me, but it's one I could easily
encounter with either the Arrow or the Cherokee Six I fly.
Tip of the hat!

I can only speak for the Arrow. Checking the POH for our plane, it
calls for fuel pump on, and mixture "set". At my home field this means
mixture full rich.

I was taught "Pump, Red, Blue, Greens" (Fuel pump on, Mixture full Rich,
Prop full forward, 3 green landing gear indicators) call out on short
final. The only time I've hand any issue with this is at a high
altitude airport where I had the mixture too rich (wasn't full rich but
was rich enough that when I turned off at the taxiway, the engine quit).


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL) , So if I was doing a go
around the boost pump would already be on. Our forced landing practice was
almost always done from about 3000 ft or higher. although a couple of times
my instructor pulled the power on downwind but before I had done the checks
, so booster pump would be off, and obviously you wouldnt turn it on again.
Occaisionally he would pull power after takeoff but just momentarily to
check that I would lower the nose immediately. So in short I have never been
faced with your situation where the power was pulled after you have set up
for landing with the boost pump on.
But it does make sense to me that this might result in flooding the engine.
I suspect you are right about turning off the boost pump, but I will be
looking out for some more experienced advice here.
Terry

"d&tm" wrote in message
...
Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was
to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back
on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL)

Why would you want to turn off your fuel pump at arguably the worst possible
moment to have an engine failure? Take off, don't touch a thing till 1000'
AGL, then touch things gently and cautiously (I'm referring to engine
controls here, not gear, flaps etc). If you're in the pattern, leave the
fuel pump on the whole time. If you're really concerned about the engine
pump failing and wanting to check that, land, taxi off the runway, turn off
the fuel pump, and taxi back, then turn your fuel pump on again before
takeoff.

Hilton

"d&tm" wrote in message
...
Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was
to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back
on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL)

Why would you want to turn off your fuel pump at arguably the worst possible
moment to have an engine failure? Take off, don't touch a thing till 1000'
AGL, then touch things gently and cautiously (I'm referring to engine
controls here, not gear, flaps etc). If you're in the pattern, leave the
fuel pump on the whole time. If you're really concerned about the engine
pump failing and wanting to check that, land, taxi off the runway, turn off
the fuel pump, and taxi back, then turn your fuel pump on again before
takeoff.

Hilton


I too was taught to leave the pump on the whole time if you are to
remain in the pattern. However, I was also taught to leave the pump
on until established at cruise altitude.

Mike Flyin' 8

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,
etc. The last landing, the instructor pulled the throttle and had me do a
forced landing. I had no trouble making the runway, and rolled off the
runway and over the hold short line. As I was tuning the ground frequency
on the radio, the engine died. And I was unable to restart it and neither
was the instructor - I ended up having to call the FBO to tow me back to
the tie down line.

It wasn't until some hours later that it hit me - during the forced
approach, I had the throttle at idle, the mixture at rich and the boost
pump on. Which is exactly how you prime it for a cold start - except for
starting you only do it for about 3 seconds, and this was for the whole
duration of the forced approach. So I figure I probably flooded it. So
what's the answer? Do you turn off the boost pump when doing practice
forced approaches? What about normal approaches? Does that mean turning
on the boost pump has to become a normal action on go-arounds and touch
and goes?

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/

Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Happy landings,

In a previous article, "Private" said:
Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

No.

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Nothing. All I can find is that for normal approach you use mixture on
full and electric fuel pump on.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, "Private" said:
Did you perform the (required?) engine clearing procedures during the
decent?

No.


My training schools required SOP was to use carb heat (if avail.) before
(and during) and clear the engine frequntly during any extended closed
throttle operation such as engine out practice and testing. IIRC the
frequency was every 300-500ft. IIRC there is a TC requirement for clearing
during flight testing and that proper clearing is part of the task grading
as per the published Flight Test Standards. There is also a restriction on
'over-clearing' when coming up short. IIRC some examiners say that they
will perform or instruct when to clear.

What does the POH say about closed throttle decents?

Nothing. All I can find is that for normal approach you use mixture on
full and electric fuel pump on.


Is there a proceedure for rapid decent such as a passenger health prolem?

ISTM that mixture is altitude dedendant but I do not know yours. Many seem
to benifit (reduced lead fouling of spark plugs) from aggresive leaning when
operating at closed or partial throttle.

Could there be a problem with any fuel or pressure regulaing valves?

If this is a club plane regularly used for training then I suspect that this
has happened before and the club should have developed an approved
proceedure to deal with the problem.

I would be concerned about operational failure should increased power be
required for go-round or if coming up short.

Happy landings,

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.