Honor to those who came forward

On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy never
forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me. I'll
go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne,
Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a special
thanks.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: r_s_schaafsma@eudora

I've visit last week the American cemetry and memorial in the Netherlands
(Margraten). Here rest 8300 heroes. It's a horrible reminder for anyone to
intensify the close ties between Europe and the US.

Some vets visited the local high school yesterday to tell their stories. One
fellow had been a PT boat captain. He told stories that held the audience in
rapt attention. He had won the Navy Cross, although he didn't mention it.
This fellow was a Dutchman, a young kid at sea working on a fishing boat when
the nazis conquered Holland. He made his way to America, enlisted in the Navy
and served in New Guinea and the Philippines on his 80-foot wooden boat,
engaging in countless battles, what he called shootouts at the OK Corral and
twenties at twenty--20mm at 20 yards--against supply barges and gunboats,
landing Marine raiding parties, dueling shore batteries, rescuing downed
airmen, making torpedo runs on jap battleship lines. When he told how his
battle-scared PT boat ended---days after the war ended it was unceremoniously
towed out to sea, set afire and sunk--there was not a dry eye among the teens
in the audience. Then he ended saying, paraphrasing as i remember it: "I was
born a Dutchman and I love my native land forever, but I am also an American
and I would, even today, old man that I am, gladly die for this country...for
many reasons...but one of these reasons is that I know that you young people
listening to me today would, without the slightest hesitation, die to save
Holland. The Dutch know that when we need you--and the day will come again
when we do--you will come. We have not the slightest doubt."

In the Q&A after the presentations he talked a lot about the ties that bind
Europe and America and that the political spats that always cloud the
relationship are superficial and inconsequential, like relatives squabbling at
the dinner table.


Chris Mark

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 7/4/03 10:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From: r_s_schaafsma@eudora

I've visit last week the American cemetry and memorial in the Netherlands
(Margraten). Here rest 8300 heroes. It's a horrible reminder for anyone to
intensify the close ties between Europe and the US.

Some vets visited the local high school yesterday to tell their stories. One
fellow had been a PT boat captain. He told stories that held the audience in
rapt attention. He had won the Navy Cross, although he didn't mention it.
This fellow was a Dutchman, a young kid at sea working on a fishing boat when
the nazis conquered Holland. He made his way to America, enlisted in the
Navy
and served in New Guinea and the Philippines on his 80-foot wooden boat,
engaging in countless battles, what he called shootouts at the OK Corral and
twenties at twenty--20mm at 20 yards--against supply barges and gunboats,
landing Marine raiding parties, dueling shore batteries, rescuing downed
airmen, making torpedo runs on jap battleship lines. When he told how his
battle-scared PT boat ended---days after the war ended it was unceremoniously
towed out to sea, set afire and sunk--there was not a dry eye among the teens
in the audience. Then he ended saying, paraphrasing as i remember it: "I was
born a Dutchman and I love my native land forever, but I am also an American
and I would, even today, old man that I am, gladly die for this country...for
many reasons...but one of these reasons is that I know that you young people
listening to me today would, without the slightest hesitation, die to save
Holland. The Dutch know that when we need you--and the day will come again
when we do--you will come. We have not the slightest doubt."

In the Q&A after the presentations he talked a lot about the ties that bind
Europe and America and that the political spats that always cloud the
relationship are superficial and inconsequential, like relatives squabbling
at
the dinner table.


Chris Mark



Good story. Thank you.



Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy never
forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me. I'll
go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne,
Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a special
thanks.

Arthur Kramer

Another self-serving platitude from Art; who'd have thunk it? If I
were to tell my Dad (a volunteer for the USAAF during WWII with
missions over japan in B-29's under his belt) or my late brother (who
volunteered for service during the Vietnam conflict and flew UH-1's as
a Dustoff pilot) that they were "elite", I'd be laughed out of the
house. Neither ever figured himself to be a bit better than any of the
other millions of servicemen who performed their service, no matter
how mundane, during those conflicts. Since when has service in the
USAAF, or USAF for that matter, made someone "elite" amongst their
other service peers?

Brooks

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 1:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy
never
forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me.
I'll
go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne,
Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a
special
thanks.

Arthur Kramer

Another self-serving platitude from Art; who'd have thunk it? If I
were to tell my Dad (a volunteer for the USAAF during WWII with
missions over japan in B-29's under his belt) or my late brother (who
volunteered for service during the Vietnam conflict and flew UH-1's as
a Dustoff pilot) that they were "elite", I'd be laughed out of the
house. Neither ever figured himself to be a bit better than any of the
other millions of servicemen who performed their service, no matter
how mundane, during those conflicts. Since when has service in the
USAAF, or USAF for that matter, made someone "elite" amongst their
other service peers?

Brooks


Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: "Sunny"
Date: 7/4/03 4:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Right. Tell us about your mates.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: "Sunny"
Date: 7/4/03 4:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's
hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Right. Tell us about your mates.

Us? I was referring to your attitude, but you wouldn't be interested
because;
1. They didn't fly with you,
2. They fought on and under the ground, and
3. You weren't there.

Sunny wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Well, I was going to stay out of this, but since it appears it'll go on forever, might
as well throw two cents in.

First, ISTM Art has some points and deserves a fair reading. The stuff written about
the concept of combat vets vs first-timers fills libraries--the "seen the elephant"
thing. IMO it is a pertinent comment, and explaining it is difficult. As to ground
crews not having the same camaraderie, it certainly is the case today, and has nothing
to do with rank--it's the shared risk thing. Those who expose themselves to enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't. (There is a peculiar derision in the
term "REMF"--and I've never met a front-line vet that doesn't get it, while almost no
non-vets do.) It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
.. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

On the "cowardice" thing: in my very limited experience, folks react differently. Some
can't take it. Some can take it but won't do anything. Some aren't scared. The latter
make me most nervous, but all are hazardous to your health. And once you have to make
allowances for someone, you never look at them the same . . . and you watch them. Guys
who refuse to perform and force someone else to greater risk in their place get
ostracized. As, to a lesser degree, do guys whose performance is suspect. The labels
don't matter all that much.

Second, if my limited understanding of this netiquette thing is right, the line is
generally drawn at ad hominems. It's perfectly okay to heap scorn on the statement,
personal remarks about the author are bad form. (The pithy little car sex thing was a
good example of the former, and witty, too.) I think we (and know I) would enjoy this
more if we could keep the personalities out of it.

rgds,
KTF

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: Cecil Turner
Date: 7/4/03 6:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Sunny wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Well, I was going to stay out of this, but since it appears it'll go on
forever, might
as well throw two cents in.

First, ISTM Art has some points and deserves a fair reading. The stuff
written about
the concept of combat vets vs first-timers fills libraries--the "seen the
elephant"
thing. IMO it is a pertinent comment, and explaining it is difficult. As to
ground
crews not having the same camaraderie, it certainly is the case today, and
has nothing
to do with rank--it's the shared risk thing. Those who expose themselves to
enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't. (There is a peculiar
derision in the
term "REMF"--and I've never met a front-line vet that doesn't get it, while
almost no
non-vets do.) It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my
brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

On the "cowardice" thing: in my very limited experience, folks react
differently. Some
can't take it. Some can take it but won't do anything. Some aren't scared.
The latter
make me most nervous, but all are hazardous to your health. And once you
have to make
allowances for someone, you never look at them the same . . . and you watch
them. Guys
who refuse to perform and force someone else to greater risk in their place
get
ostracized. As, to a lesser degree, do guys whose performance is suspect.
The labels
don't matter all that much.

Second, if my limited understanding of this netiquette thing is right, the
line is
generally drawn at ad hominems. It's perfectly okay to heap scorn on the
statement,
personal remarks about the author are bad form. (The pithy little car sex
thing was a
good example of the former, and witty, too.) I think we (and know I) would
enjoy this
more if we could keep the personalities out of it.

rgds,
KTF


This one is for you Cecil. (s)

Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges


Railroad bridges were brutally defended. Knock out a RR bridge and you have cut
transport for possibly hundreds of miles . And while repairing track took only
a few hours. rebulding a RR bridge over a river or chasm might take weeks. We
had some of our heaviest losses over these bridges. On the 13th of February
1945 we attacked the RR Bridge at Euskirchen. We lost two aircraft over the
target. We lost Yeager and his crew and Williams (one chute seen to open) and
his crew. The very next day we hit the Engers RR bridge and we lost 5 aircraft
over the target. Brennen,Holms, Jones, Nelson and Meppen and crews were lost
but three chutes were seen you open. Two bridges,two days, seven crews lost. A
lot of empty bunks at the 344th. And the war was almost over. What a time to
die.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer