Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.

The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by merit
was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great honor.

However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests. They were an elite. Methods both made
illegal under affirmative action in the civilian world in a Landmark case
involving the Duke Power Company who wanted to eliminate the possibility of
racial discrimination by using written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias as
much as possible.

That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the Tusgegee
Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ and 100% merit
based tests.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.

"The Enlightenment" wrote in
:

The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by
merit was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great
honor.

However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason
integration has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is
this: Selection on the basis of merit and IQ tests. They were an
elite. Methods both made illegal under affirmative action in the
civilian world in a Landmark case involving the Duke Power Company who
wanted to eliminate the possibility of racial discrimination by using
written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias as much as possible.

That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the
Tusgegee Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ
and 100% merit based tests.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.

And how much personal experience do YOU have with the military? I've been
an active or full-time Reserve airman for 8 years now. I can tell you
that affirmative action has nothing at all to do with what positions
blacks hold in the military (or at least the Air Force). Those who have
advanced through the ranks have almost certainly earned the privilege to
have been promoted to whatever their rank may be.

Since you mention written tests, however, active duty airmen (E-4 and up)
have to take 2 written tests each cycle, if eligible for promotion (based
on Time In Grade requirements), to attempt to get themselves promoted to
the next rank - one the Skills Knowledge Test (SKT) and the Performance
Fitness Exam??? (PFE). Both factor heavily into scores used in
determining who gets a "line number" for the next rank and who doesn't.
Many who DO get line numbers are black or otherwise non-white.

So take your ignorant, racist BS somewhere else. Or better yet, grow up
and learn to accept the fact there really are many decent, respectable,
and even smart minorities out there.

"Jughead" wrote in message
.21...

And how much personal experience do YOU have with the military? I've been
an active or full-time Reserve airman for 8 years now. I can tell you
that affirmative action has nothing at all to do with what positions
blacks hold in the military (or at least the Air Force). Those who have
advanced through the ranks have almost certainly earned the privilege to
have been promoted to whatever their rank may be.

Since you mention written tests, however, active duty airmen (E-4 and up)
have to take 2 written tests each cycle, if eligible for promotion (based
on Time In Grade requirements), to attempt to get themselves promoted to
the next rank - one the Skills Knowledge Test (SKT) and the Performance
Fitness Exam??? (PFE). Both factor heavily into scores used in
determining who gets a "line number" for the next rank and who doesn't.
Many who DO get line numbers are black or otherwise non-white.

So take your ignorant, racist BS somewhere else. Or better yet, grow up
and learn to accept the fact there really are many decent, respectable,
and even smart minorities out there.


Why don't you read his message again?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
rthlink.net:


"Jughead" wrote in message
.21...

And how much personal experience do YOU have with the military? I've
been an active or full-time Reserve airman for 8 years now. I can
tell you that affirmative action has nothing at all to do with what
positions blacks hold in the military (or at least the Air Force).
Those who have advanced through the ranks have almost certainly
earned the privilege to have been promoted to whatever their rank may
be.

Since you mention written tests, however, active duty airmen (E-4 and
up) have to take 2 written tests each cycle, if eligible for
promotion (based on Time In Grade requirements), to attempt to get
themselves promoted to the next rank - one the Skills Knowledge Test
(SKT) and the Performance Fitness Exam??? (PFE). Both factor heavily
into scores used in determining who gets a "line number" for the next
rank and who doesn't. Many who DO get line numbers are black or
otherwise non-white.

So take your ignorant, racist BS somewhere else. Or better yet, grow
up and learn to accept the fact there really are many decent,
respectable, and even smart minorities out there.


Why don't you read his message again?

I read it several times. Am I confused with what he's getting at or are
you the one who's confused? I interpreted his post as being anti-
affirmative action (which I'm completely against myself), but done so in
what I perceived as a racist tone. ????? What did you take the post to
mean?

"Jughead" wrote in message
.11...

I read it several times. Am I confused with what he's getting at or are
you the one who's confused? I interpreted his post as being anti-
affirmative action (which I'm completely against myself), but done so in
what I perceived as a racist tone. ????? What did you take the post to
mean?


I believe you are the one confused. I find nothing in the message racist in
tone.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

"Jughead" wrote in message
.11...

I read it several times. Am I confused with what he's getting at or are
you the one who's confused? I interpreted his post as being anti-
affirmative action (which I'm completely against myself), but done so in
what I perceived as a racist tone. ????? What did you take the post
to
mean?


I believe you are the one confused. I find nothing in the message racist
in
tone.

I did.

Read into it a little.
"However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason
integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests. "

Or,
"Had integration not been based on merit and IQ, US military effectiveness
would have been degraded."
While this may be true, it is also true of anyone selected for pilot
training, be they white, black, or green with pink polka dots.

Pete
[disclaimer: both my father and my uncle were TA pilots]

From: "The Enlightenment"

Today Possum Gully; Tomorrow The World!

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...
The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by
merit
was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great honor.

Not quite. You seem not to understand that in the US at the time, it was
customary (and in some states legal) to simply altogether exclude certain
entire groups of persons from the application of the rights, privileges and
immunities of citizenship, including voting rights and service in the armed
forces. In the USAAC, for example, a potential pilot-trainee could at one
time be excluded from participation on the grounds...that he was a
Negro...and no other rationale was considered necessary for that situation
to obtain. The same obtained when it came to admission to the US service
academies. That policy did change, however. Similarly, non-whites were
excluded from the US Navy's officer ranks for most of the war. Hence the TA
might not have been judged on their merits, but discriminated against
despite their merits.


However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason
integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests.

IQ tests have been under fire as a legitimate tool of selection for many
years. An IQ test is all but irrelevant in determining which persons will
have the hand-eye-leg coordination necessary for competent fighter pilotage,
or for determining which persons will demonstrate the skills requisite to
managing a transport or a bomber a/c. Any human-resources person in the
civilian sector can probably tell you, (if so inclined) how easy it is to
"get around" even stringent selection rules. In other words, neither native
intelligence (IQ?) nor acquired skills (merit) necessarily determined how
society or a military organization treated you.

You seem to fail to recognize that officially-sanctioned racism was more or
less the norm in the US of those days. The TA experiment succeeded only
because the necessary impetus was available to force it through against
several levels and forms of opposition: F Delano and Eleanor Roosevelt.
Otherwise, the TA probably would have been excluded.

It was not a question of whether the TA were "qualified"; instead it was a
question of whether they should be included or could be excluded. To ensure
exclusion, certain roadblocks were placed in their way. That was the
reality, virtually all across the board.

They were an elite.

That seems to have been true, to the extent that the "typical" TA had
completed college or a substantial proportion thereof, whereas the black
population taken as a whole had not had such an education. By contrast (and
no aspersion is intended) Chuck Yeager, by all accounts an excellent pilot,
did not attend college. Recall also that Bob Johnson of P-47 fame,
matriculated at a junior college before entering the USAAC. In neither case
did their education or membership in an "elite" make any real difference to
their opportunity to become pilots or to their performances. It was
unnecessary for either Yeager or Johnson to have been part of an "elite" in
order to become a part of the air corps, but I'm glad both of them were
available and that the USAAF sent them where they could do some good work.

Methods both made
illegal under affirmative action in the civilian world in a Landmark case
involving the Duke Power Company who wanted to eliminate the possibility
of
racial discrimination by using written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias
as
much as possible.

I may be a bit parochial, but I don't believe I've ever encountered a test
which can be termed "devoid of bias", probably because no one who composes
tests based principally on IQ is without biases (I admit to reaching this
conclusion only after discussions with psychology majors while in college).
A built-in bias of any such test is that it assumes that the testees have
had solid educations, and rewards those who have.


That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the
Tusgegee
Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ and 100%
merit
based tests.

Not really. You don't seem to understand that there were societal and
(within the USAAF) systemic biases at work against the TA even coming into
existence. A phrase I used to hear quite often (but less so nowadays) was
that "A Negro (that wasn't what was actually uttered) can't become a (fill
in the blank), they're not smart enough". After completing training, the TA
were subjected to a long waiting period before they were grudgingly sent
overseas. The TA achieved against tough odds. This was the result of the TA
men belonging to an "underclass" of US society.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.

Agreed. Who you know and what group you are classified into are factors
which often have had more to say about one's access to opportunities than
so-called "merit".

Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

The Squadron was particularly effective at a time when being judged by merit
was apparently not common and for this its men deserve great honor.

However the reason the Trugegee Airmen worked, indeed the reason integration
has not degraded the effectiveness of the US military is this: Selection
on the basis of merit and IQ tests. They were an elite. Methods both made
illegal under affirmative action in the civilian world in a Landmark case
involving the Duke Power Company who wanted to eliminate the possibility of
racial discrimination by using written tests and IQ tests devoid of bias as
much as possible.

That's the sub text of what I think when I here someone lauding the Tusgegee
Airmen. They are lauding and proving the effectveness of IQ and 100% merit
based tests.

I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
..

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda.
From: "The Enlightenment"
Date: 7/6/03 7:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


I guess you are lucky if you are judged on merit.
.

Not particularly impressed with the Tuskeegee aimren? Be assured that they are
not particularly impressed with you.


Not Particularly Impressed with Tuskegee Airmen Propaganda