US seeks bases in Australia

Just like to add, that anyone who states that Phuoc Tuy is "such flat
terrain" has never seen it, let alone worked in it.

"gblack" wrote in message
...


"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
: "gblack" wrote in message
...
: : The SAS was limited in capability because they were accustomed
to
: short
: : range patrolling. They could not hack it when working with the
101st
: : Airborne Division LRRPs who visited them in Phuoc Tuy province
in
: 1967.
: : The Australians complained about the distances traveled on long
: range
: : patrols and they ended up getting tired and careless in the
process.
: : There was no excuse for that on such flat terrain. The SAS men
were
: : clearly out of shape.
:
: Funny. A search of the Net comes up with articles like
: http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/SP.htm
:
: which refutes your position
:
:
: A search in the history of the Australian SAS supports my position.
: SAS: Phantoms of War, by David Horner. I shouldn't have to hit you
: Kangaroos over the head with this one so often.

One book huh. Wow what a depth of research you have attained. One
bloody book

: Get off your glutes and go to a library, pops.

So real life doesn't count in your world!

: Britain's Small Wars Web site is a propaganda mill for the lazy and
: simple of mind. The authors rely on the same methods used by Venik.

Uhuh. All the Unit histories are inncorrect eh.. and you're the only
squaddie marching in step
Why so long in getting back. Aren't you allowed computers in there ?

"L'acrobat" wrote in message ...

"L'acrobat" wrote in message ...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...


The SAS was limited in capability because they were accustomed to short
range patrolling. They could not hack it when working with the 101st
Airborne Division LRRPs who visited them in Phuoc Tuy province in 1967.
The Australians complained about the distances traveled on long range
patrols and they ended up getting tired and careless in the process.
There was no excuse for that on such flat terrain. The SAS men were
clearly out of shape.


Oh Evan, what a sad trolling piece of **** you are.


SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
my patsy?


Squadrons performance won great praise from their American allies


David Horner said that his beloved Australian SAS whined about the
great distances covered by the obviously better conditioned 101st
Airborne LRRPs and that SAS men got tired and careless as a result.
There was no "great praise" from these Americans, according to he.

If only General Westmoreland could have gone on these patrols to
see what a bunch of crybabies populated the SAS. At least the SAS
was smart enough to kiss Westmoreland's ass when they copied his
Recondo school back in 1960.

Brown-nosing did have its rewards.


In Vietnam the
The SAS patrols had such an impact on the VC that one report
stated that the VC had placed a bounty of $US5,000 dead or alive
on the head of each 'Ma Rung' - Phantoms of the Jungle.


Uh, not quite. : )

Horner said that "$5,000 US" was just "a rumour". He said the SAS
thought it was a joke because no documents were found to support it.
No names of Viet Cong were given, which usually suggests "bull****"
or bartalk after one too many Foster's. Horner mentioned another
another "rumour" of "up to 6,000 piastres" paid for SAS men. Again
he said that no documents were found to support this.

They also can't seem to find the name of the VC who supposedly
invented the name "Ma Rung". Maybe it was invented by a drunken
Australian reporter.

Another interesting part of Horner's book is the numerous group
photos of Australian SAS men after 1967. Most of them are wearing
AMERICAN uniforms and carrying AMERICAN weapons like M-16 and
grenade launchers. The SAS was so enamored of AMERICAN airmobility
and insertion techniques that they eventually used five helicopters
to support just ONE five-man patrol. Australian infantry was not
so lucky and that's why Charlie ran circles around them.

What the SAS learned fast is that methods used in Malaya and
Borneo did not cut the mustard in Vietnam. They adjusted, unlike
your infantry units. Their actions speak louder than your words.

(Read this book because you still need help) David Horner. SAS:
Phantoms of War, A History of the Australian Special Air Service.
Allen & Unwin, 2002. ISBN 1 86508 647 9


Keep going, making you look foolish is easy, but satisfying in a 'picking at
scabs' sort of way.


Someone give this chimp a Rubik's cube and we can rid him from our
sight forever.

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
: "L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
:
: "L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
: "Evan Brennan" wrote in message
: m...
:
:
: The SAS was limited in capability because they were accustomed
to short
: range patrolling. They could not hack it when working with the
101st
: Airborne Division LRRPs who visited them in Phuoc Tuy province
in 1967.
: The Australians complained about the distances traveled on long
range
: patrols and they ended up getting tired and careless in the
process.
: There was no excuse for that on such flat terrain. The SAS men
were
: clearly out of shape.
:
:
: Oh Evan, what a sad trolling piece of **** you are.
:
:
: SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
: my patsy?
:
:
: Squadrons performance won great praise from their American allies
:
:
: David Horner said that his beloved Australian SAS whined about the
: great distances covered by the obviously better conditioned 101st
: Airborne LRRPs and that SAS men got tired and careless as a result.
: There was no "great praise" from these Americans, according to he.
:
: If only General Westmoreland could have gone on these patrols to
: see what a bunch of crybabies populated the SAS. At least the SAS
: was smart enough to kiss Westmoreland's ass when they copied his
: Recondo school back in 1960.
:
: Brown-nosing did have its rewards.
:
:
: In Vietnam the
: The SAS patrols had such an impact on the VC that one report
: stated that the VC had placed a bounty of $US5,000 dead or alive
: on the head of each 'Ma Rung' - Phantoms of the Jungle.
:
:
: Uh, not quite. : )
:
: Horner said that "$5,000 US" was just "a rumour". He said the SAS
: thought it was a joke because no documents were found to support it.
: No names of Viet Cong were given, which usually suggests "bull****"
: or bartalk after one too many Foster's. Horner mentioned another
: another "rumour" of "up to 6,000 piastres" paid for SAS men. Again
: he said that no documents were found to support this.
:
: They also can't seem to find the name of the VC who supposedly
: invented the name "Ma Rung". Maybe it was invented by a drunken
: Australian reporter.
:
: Another interesting part of Horner's book is the numerous group
: photos of Australian SAS men after 1967. Most of them are wearing
: AMERICAN uniforms and carrying AMERICAN weapons like M-16 and
: grenade launchers. The SAS was so enamored of AMERICAN airmobility
: and insertion techniques that they eventually used five helicopters
: to support just ONE five-man patrol. Australian infantry was not
: so lucky and that's why Charlie ran circles around them.
:
: What the SAS learned fast is that methods used in Malaya and
: Borneo did not cut the mustard in Vietnam. They adjusted, unlike
: your infantry units. Their actions speak louder than your words.

The difference was that in Vietnam the troops were under US command
and not permitted to carry out the tried and proven tactics workied
out in Malaya/Borneo

: (Read this book because you still need help) David Horner. SAS:
: Phantoms of War, A History of the Australian Special Air Service.
: Allen & Unwin, 2002. ISBN 1 86508 647 9
:
One book...
say, the Australian and New Zealand SAS were operating with the
American Special Forces against the Taliban or did that little detail
escape your myopic view...

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...


The SAS was limited in capability because they were accustomed to
short
range patrolling. They could not hack it when working with the 101st
Airborne Division LRRPs who visited them in Phuoc Tuy province in
1967.
The Australians complained about the distances traveled on long range
patrols and they ended up getting tired and careless in the process.
There was no excuse for that on such flat terrain. The SAS men were
clearly out of shape.


Oh Evan, what a sad trolling piece of **** you are.

SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
my patsy?

Squadrons performance won great praise from their American allies

David Horner said that his beloved Australian SAS whined about the
great distances covered by the obviously better conditioned 101st
Airborne LRRPs and that SAS men got tired and careless as a result.
There was no "great praise" from these Americans, according to he.

If only General Westmoreland could have gone on these patrols to
see what a bunch of crybabies populated the SAS. At least the SAS
was smart enough to kiss Westmoreland's ass when they copied his
Recondo school back in 1960.

Where are you getting these "facts" from?
The SAS started in 1957 as a Coy of the Royal Australian Regiment and used
training methods similar to the British SAS until the Borneo Emergency in
1962 when they were expanded to a full blown Regiment.(formally completed on
4 Sep 1964.)
At the time of the deployment to SVN (1966) the SAS also had one of the
three squadrons committed to Brunei.
Where was this so called "Recondo school" established?

Brown-nosing did have its rewards.


In Vietnam the
The SAS patrols had such an impact on the VC that one report
stated that the VC had placed a bounty of $US5,000 dead or alive
on the head of each 'Ma Rung' - Phantoms of the Jungle.


Uh, not quite. : )

Horner said that "$5,000 US" was just "a rumour". He said the SAS
thought it was a joke because no documents were found to support it.
No names of Viet Cong were given, which usually suggests "bull****"
or bartalk after one too many Foster's. Horner mentioned another
another "rumour" of "up to 6,000 piastres" paid for SAS men. Again
he said that no documents were found to support this.

They also can't seem to find the name of the VC who supposedly
invented the name "Ma Rung". Maybe it was invented by a drunken
Australian reporter.

Another interesting part of Horner's book is the numerous group
photos of Australian SAS men after 1967. Most of them are wearing
AMERICAN uniforms and carrying AMERICAN weapons like M-16 and
grenade launchers. The SAS was so enamored of AMERICAN airmobility
and insertion techniques that they eventually used five helicopters
to support just ONE five-man patrol. Australian infantry was not
so lucky and that's why Charlie ran circles around them.

Bull****, how come the US Military attached observers to our units, to find
out why we were having such successes against the VC?

What the SAS learned fast is that methods used in Malaya and
Borneo did not cut the mustard in Vietnam. They adjusted, unlike
your infantry units. Their actions speak louder than your words.

(Read this book because you still need help) David Horner. SAS:
Phantoms of War, A History of the Australian Special Air Service.
Allen & Unwin, 2002. ISBN 1 86508 647 9

Broaden your reading, to include other authors and historians.

(Evan Brennan) writes:

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...

Oh Evan, what a sad trolling piece of **** you are.

SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
my patsy?

*PLONK*
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \ and postings | to help me spread!

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...


The SAS was limited in capability because they were accustomed to
short
range patrolling. They could not hack it when working with the 101st
Airborne Division LRRPs who visited them in Phuoc Tuy province in
1967.
The Australians complained about the distances traveled on long range
patrols and they ended up getting tired and careless in the process.
There was no excuse for that on such flat terrain. The SAS men were
clearly out of shape.


Oh Evan, what a sad trolling piece of **** you are.


SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
my patsy?

You've found one book which you insist on misquoting, you've been caught
lying repeatedly.

You are a troll and a sad one at that.



Squadrons performance won great praise from their American allies


David Horner said that his beloved Australian SAS whined about the
great distances covered by the obviously better conditioned 101st
Airborne LRRPs and that SAS men got tired and careless as a result.
There was no "great praise" from these Americans, according to he.

If only General Westmoreland could have gone on these patrols to
see what a bunch of crybabies populated the SAS. At least the SAS
was smart enough to kiss Westmoreland's ass when they copied his
Recondo school back in 1960.

Brown-nosing did have its rewards.


Yawn, Westmorland insisted that US SF troops be trained by the SAS. End of
story.



In Vietnam the
The SAS patrols had such an impact on the VC that one report
stated that the VC had placed a bounty of $US5,000 dead or alive
on the head of each 'Ma Rung' - Phantoms of the Jungle.


Uh, not quite. : )

Horner said that "$5,000 US" was just "a rumour". He said the SAS
thought it was a joke because no documents were found to support it.
No names of Viet Cong were given, which usually suggests "bull****"
or bartalk after one too many Foster's. Horner mentioned another
another "rumour" of "up to 6,000 piastres" paid for SAS men. Again
he said that no documents were found to support this.


Uh, not quite David Horner said so, not fact.


They also can't seem to find the name of the VC who supposedly
invented the name "Ma Rung". Maybe it was invented by a drunken
Australian reporter.

Yawn.


Another interesting part of Horner's book is the numerous group
photos of Australian SAS men after 1967. Most of them are wearing
AMERICAN uniforms and carrying AMERICAN weapons like M-16 and
grenade launchers. The SAS was so enamored of AMERICAN airmobility
and insertion techniques that they eventually used five helicopters
to support just ONE five-man patrol. Australian infantry was not
so lucky and that's why Charlie ran circles around them.


Yawn, yet as you are well aware those very charlies were utterly defeated in
Austs AO and moved into surrounding US AOs, why do you insist on making it
so easy cretinboy?


What the SAS learned fast is that methods used in Malaya and
Borneo did not cut the mustard in Vietnam. They adjusted, unlike
your infantry units. Their actions speak louder than your words.

Yawn.


(Read this book because you still need help) David Horner. SAS:
Phantoms of War, A History of the Australian Special Air Service.
Allen & Unwin, 2002. ISBN 1 86508 647 9

I have, you regularly misquote it.

Perhaps if you weren't a lying, trolling piece of **** you would be better
at this stuff?



Keep going, making you look foolish is easy, but satisfying in a
'picking at
scabs' sort of way.


Someone give this chimp a Rubik's cube and we can rid him from our
sight forever.

Yawn. Dull boy.

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...



SAS: Phantoms of War, says otherwise. Why do you insist on being
my patsy?


"The Aussies taught us a lot about small unit ops" Brig General Ellis
'Butch' Williamson to David Horner 29 Apr 1986







When we (the Paras) found something we shot at it. We did not wait and
establish the patterns, look for opportunities after out thinking the VC
commander. We were just not patient enough - too much too do in too little
time. We did not use reconnaissance enough. Our ambushes were for security
not to kill. Australians were quiet hunters - patient, thorough, trying to
out-think the VC. I would not have liked to operate at night and know there
was a chance of ending up in an Aussie ambush.



Lt Col George Dexter CO of 2/503rd Bn to David Horner 10 May 1986


Phantoms of War isn't the only book Dave wrote...

"L'acrobat" wrote in message ...
SAS Captain Tony Danilenko transferred to AATTV but didn't last
long in the big leagues. He got killed leading a Montagnard unit
on the border of Laos. He probably got careless since he was
accustomed to fighting second class VC units while on the usual
milk runs in the lowlands around Phuoc Tuy. Laos featured more
rugged terrain and it was crawling with elite NVA counter-recon
units and other nasties not found in Phuoc Tuy province.

and yet the SAS trained the US special forces at Westmorelands request.

A sad attempt to denigrate the work he did.


Which work is that?


were sent to help the MACV-SOG


And SOG was there to help them. It's called cross training, exchange
of ideas, etc.

No, it's called training. Westmoreland insisted on it being done by SASR
for the US SF.


Nope. MACV-SOG troops trained on Okinawa and had they had their own
Recondo Schools at Kham Duc and Hon Tray Island. SASR was not involved.


The SAS also sent their boys to the USA for more training. For
example the commander of 2 Squadron, Brian Wade, attended the
stateside Ranger, Pathfinder, special warfare, diving and HALO
parachute courses. Based on the quota system, Australians and
other Allied countries sent their recon patrol leaders by special
appointment to get trained by American LRRPs at the MACV Recondo
School.

No, General Westmoreland started the first Recondo School at Fort
Campbell in 1958.

The Australian SAS commander L.G. Clark later went to the USA to
get trained by American instructors. When he returned, he opened
up his own recondo school at Ingleburn in 1960. The students were
called "Rangers". He even ripped off the name from us.

Yet where it counted, in Vietnam, Westmoreland insisted that the US
SF be trained by SASR.


That explains why Australian soldiers were trained by American LRRPs
and Rangers, by appointment, at the 5th Special Force Recondo School
at Nha Trang.


Sour grapes, L'acrobat. Australia was mostly useless in Vietnam as well.
An obviously jealous Australian general explained why he wanted many
more helicopters so they could operate and fight like the American LRRP
Recondo type units:

" The fleeting enemy and our rifle are too evenly matched. This was
one of the reasons in asking for medium tanks which can accompany
the infantry in most places with their canister guns. Dispersed or
dispersing VC can nearly always elude our foot infantry who have
insufficient immediate contact firepower while on the ground mobility
of our infantry is no better and usually inferior to that of the VC...

On the other hand, small parties of infantry operating where the enemy
has freedom of unobserved movement can reap a comparative harvest...
We would like to do more SAS type ambush patrols but we do not have
the Iroquois lift and gunships to do it "

~ Major-General Tim Vincent
December 1967

why did you remove the reference to the ALLIED effort?

We cannot remove what was never there.

"WE"?, just you Evan, just you.


I don't see anyone agreeing with you.

By now, everyone knows what General Vincent said. Everyone but you.

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
...
"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...
SAS Captain Tony Danilenko transferred to AATTV but didn't last
long in the big leagues. He got killed leading a Montagnard unit
on the border of Laos. He probably got careless since he was
accustomed to fighting second class VC units while on the usual
milk runs in the lowlands around Phuoc Tuy. Laos featured more
rugged terrain and it was crawling with elite NVA counter-recon
units and other nasties not found in Phuoc Tuy province.

and yet the SAS trained the US special forces at Westmorelands request.

A sad attempt to denigrate the work he did.


Which work is that?


were sent to help the MACV-SOG


And SOG was there to help them. It's called cross training, exchange
of ideas, etc.

No, it's called training. Westmoreland insisted on it being done by SASR
for the US SF.


Nope. MACV-SOG troops trained on Okinawa and had they had their own
Recondo Schools at Kham Duc and Hon Tray Island. SASR was not involved.



Westmoreland insisted on the training being done by SASR
for the US SF it's well documented trollboy.





The SAS also sent their boys to the USA for more training. For
example the commander of 2 Squadron, Brian Wade, attended the
stateside Ranger, Pathfinder, special warfare, diving and HALO
parachute courses. Based on the quota system, Australians and
other Allied countries sent their recon patrol leaders by special
appointment to get trained by American LRRPs at the MACV Recondo
School.

No, General Westmoreland started the first Recondo School at Fort
Campbell in 1958.

The Australian SAS commander L.G. Clark later went to the USA to
get trained by American instructors. When he returned, he opened
up his own recondo school at Ingleburn in 1960. The students were
called "Rangers". He even ripped off the name from us.

Yet where it counted, in Vietnam, Westmoreland insisted that the US
SF be trained by SASR.


That explains why Australian soldiers were trained by American LRRPs
and Rangers, by appointment, at the 5th Special Force Recondo School
at Nha Trang.


Sour grapes, L'acrobat. Australia was mostly useless in Vietnam as
well.
An obviously jealous Australian general explained why he wanted many
more helicopters so they could operate and fight like the American
LRRP
Recondo type units:

" The fleeting enemy and our rifle are too evenly matched. This was
one of the reasons in asking for medium tanks which can accompany
the infantry in most places with their canister guns. Dispersed or
dispersing VC can nearly always elude our foot infantry who have
insufficient immediate contact firepower while on the ground mobility
of our infantry is no better and usually inferior to that of the
VC...

On the other hand, small parties of infantry operating where the
enemy
has freedom of unobserved movement can reap a comparative harvest...
We would like to do more SAS type ambush patrols but we do not have
the Iroquois lift and gunships to do it "

~ Major-General Tim Vincent
December 1967

why did you remove the reference to the ALLIED effort?

We cannot remove what was never there.

"WE"?, just you Evan, just you.


I don't see anyone agreeing with you.

By now, everyone knows what General Vincent said. Everyone but you.

They are laughing at you trollboy. but you are used to that.

"The CO" wrote in message ...

How many MIA Americans in Vietnam? Still? I believe we have about
6 or so.


How many pilots did you have, about 6 or so?

Three million Americans served in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand.
Against about 50,000 Australians.