Comparing aircraft rentals and training costs.

Hi guys,

I am trying to decide where to rent the plane from for pilot training.
But, being the archetypal pauper grad student, I needed your opinion (and
reasons) on which would be the cheaper option:

Our university's flying club:
Cessna 152 (1978) at 30$/ hr (measured by hobb's meter)
Piper Warrior II PA-28-161 (1979) with a new engine at 35$/hr
fuel charges extra.
instructor charges extra. (I can engage any instructor I choose.)
Membership costs: (I become the co-owner of the planes, as long as I am a
member.)
One time initiation fee of $300
Monthly membership fee is $35

----------
Another flying club near-by:
Instructor charges (dual flying and ground training): 50$/hr Discounted
rental rates include fuel and oil.
Cessna 152 (1983) Rate: $79.00/hr
Piper PA28-161 Warrior II (1983) Rate: $89.00/hr

As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I cannot
compare the prices directly using arithmetic. Can someone give me an
estimate on these costs too, please?

Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
examination?

Sincerely,
Vishvas Vasuki

I am trying to decide where to rent the plane from for pilot training.
But, being the archetypal pauper grad student, I needed your opinion (and
reasons) on which would be the cheaper option:

Our university's flying club:
Cessna 152 (1978) at 30$/ hr (measured by hobb's meter)
Piper Warrior II PA-28-161 (1979) with a new engine at 35$/hr
fuel charges extra.
instructor charges extra. (I can engage any instructor I choose.)
Membership costs: (I become the co-owner of the planes, as long as I am a
member.)
One time initiation fee of $300
Monthly membership fee is $35

----------
Another flying club near-by:
Instructor charges (dual flying and ground training): 50$/hr
Discounted rental rates include fuel and oil.
Cessna 152 (1983) Rate: $79.00/hr
Piper PA28-161 Warrior II (1983) Rate: $89.00/hr

As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I
cannot compare the prices directly using arithmetic. Can someone give me
an estimate on these costs too, please?

Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
examination?

Sincerely,
Vishvas Vasuki

Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
expensive of the two...

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
examination?

Sincerely,
Vishvas Vasuki

Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
expensive of the two...

Thanks! Based on the figures you quoted, I did the math, and I agree that
the university club is a better investment. Even if I factor in membership
fees for six months and the initiation fee at the university club, the
hourly cost at the two clubs seem to be $105 and $129 respectively. It
seems to come from the difference in the rental costs and the instructor
costs.

-Vishvas

On 05/10/07 09:49, Vishvas Vasuki wrote:

Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
examination?

Sincerely,
Vishvas Vasuki

Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
expensive of the two...

Thanks! Based on the figures you quoted, I did the math, and I agree that
the university club is a better investment. Even if I factor in membership
fees for six months and the initiation fee at the university club, the
hourly cost at the two clubs seem to be $105 and $129 respectively. It
seems to come from the difference in the rental costs and the instructor
costs.

-Vishvas



Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Hi,

Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes a
'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.

The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are maintained to
the highest standards and we carry excellent insurance." But the
university club's constitution has this to say:

"Section B - Financial Responsibility

1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally responsible
for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her custody.

2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
down or turned over to another member.

3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor beyond
the control of the member concerned, the flying members may elect, by
majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting cost, depending
on the circumstances of the individual case."

But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying school
(Northampton Airport) online.

Sincerely,
Vishvas

Recently, Vishvas Vasuki posted:

Hi,

Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance
company from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a
claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.

The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are
maintained to the highest standards and we carry excellent
insurance." But the university club's constitution has this to say:

"Section B - Financial Responsibility

1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally
responsible for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her
custody.

2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
down or turned over to another member.

3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor
beyond the control of the member concerned, the flying members may
elect, by majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting
cost, depending on the circumstances of the individual case."

I'm hard pressed to see any advantage to this insurance coverage, and
would consider it a requirement to carry your own insurance. Factor in
that, and the costs come closer to or exceed that of the other flying
school, depending on the number of hours that you fly.

But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying
school (Northampton Airport) online.

That may be an important difference. If their coverage is no better than
the university's, that will also imply that you obtain your own insurance.

Regards,

Neil

On 05/10/07 21:23, Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
Hi,

Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes a
'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.

The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are maintained to
the highest standards and we carry excellent insurance." But the
university club's constitution has this to say:

"Section B - Financial Responsibility

1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally responsible
for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her custody.

2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
down or turned over to another member.

3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor beyond
the control of the member concerned, the flying members may elect, by
majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting cost, depending
on the circumstances of the individual case."

Well, this certainly makes it sound like the club's insurance policy does
not cover you. You may want to consider getting your own insurance. Just
beware that the cost of hull coverage for renter pilots is not cheap.

Also, if the club tells you that their insurance will cover the airplane,
and they will only need you to cover the deductible, keep in mind that
the club's insurance company can still come after you for the full amount
of the claim, unless the policy has a no subrogation or similar clause.

The main driving force behind joining the club I did was that they include
each member as a 'named insured' on the policy, so the insurance company
can't come after us for recovery. The club even covers the deductible.
When I weighed the $20/month club dues against what it would cost me to
carry that much renter's insurance, it was a no-brainer.


But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying school
(Northampton Airport) online.

Sincerely,
Vishvas




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

More importantly IMHO
If someone fries the engine tomorrow, are you on the hook for a share to
buy a new one?

What is your share of the deductible if someone writes it off?

Is there an account that saves toward major items like engine rebuild?

Owning part of the plane can be good - because you have an asset that
you can sell - but make sure you understand all of your assumed
liabilities.

I hope that this helps,

Welcome to the world of flight!

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I cannot
compare the prices directly using arithmetic.

in addition to the good points made by the other contributors, a couple of
things to consider:

- how many aircraft each places has, and how is maintenance done? if you
have to cancel lesson after lesson because the one and only trainer that
you can fly is unavailable, you'll find that your training is going to take
a lot more time and $$$ to complete;

- have you talked with the instructors? one good instructor with whom you
get along and who is efficient -- and available!.. same issue as above --
can make a much bigger difference in the overall cost of your training
than just the rental rate...

- what are the policies of these two places regarding renting aircraft for
several days, what kind of more advanced aircraft do they offer? you
won't be a student for ever, and will eventually want to progress to
faster, fancier machines and undertake more ambitious flights; can the
club/fbo you are considering make this possible or will you have to
find another place (where you'll have to spend some time being checked
out -- which can take a while for newly minted pilots)

--Sylvain

Thanks!

As I'm chasing the PhD degree, I expect to be a student for 4-6 more
years. As I can hardly wait to fly a powered plane, I'd rather not go in
for glider-training before graduating to a powered plane.

I plan to start training in October, and I'll check out the aircraft and
instructor availability, and its effects on my training at each place in
greater detail.

At the university, I can choose any instructor; and there are two planes:
Cessna 152 and the Piper Warrior. It seems that members can rent out
planes for one weekend per semester. Members are expected to return
the aircraft with at least 3 billable hours for each 24 hour period
scheduled.

At the Northampton airport, there are six instructors, and 5 aircraft:
Cessna 152, one Cessna 172, Two Piper Warrior II's, one Piper Arrow. (It
seems that they plan to get a light sports plane in the near future.)
Some aircraft may be scheduled for longer than 24 hours here, but, there
must be between two to four minimum flight hours.

But, either website does not mention anything about checking out pilots
before renting out aircraft for ambitious flights. Is it a common thing?

--
Vishvas Vasuki