Syrian and Iranian AF 2003

Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?

I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
or upgraded their a/c?

Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
combat experience/training.

Kenneth Williams

Kenneth,
the mainstay of the SyAAF interceptor units are something like 42 MiG-29s of
two or three main versions (the "export" 9.12, two-seaters, and possibly
some SMTs, but the last is far from being sure), then some 60 MiG-23MF/MF &
MLs, all of which should have been standardised to a version locally called
MiG-23S, and then some 40 MiG-21bis, armed with R-73s.

The condition of MiG-25s is unclear: the recce versions appear to be very
active; reports about the interceptor versions are relatively scarce (last
I've hard about them being scrambled was two years back).

For air-to-ground, they have some 22 Su-24MKs and one or two Su-24MRs (the
last came from Libya, together with two Su-24MKs: for more details see the
article "The King of Middle Eastern Swing-Sings", which is to appear in
International Air Power Review, volume 8 or 9), then something like 30
MiG-23BNs, and a similar number of Su-20M and Su-22M-3/4Ks (all of which are
in a pretty bad shape). There is also a pretty sizeable number of older
MiG-21bis/MF and other airframes, but quite a few of these were rebuilt into
recce fighters (note that I'm talking about active airframes: except the
MiG-29s, Su-24s, and - theoretically - MiG-25s - 50% of the remaining assets
are either in storage, or grounded).

The Syrians have also a small naval air arm, equipped with Ka-25
helicopters, and permanently attached interceptor squadron (usually equipped
with MiG-23s or MiG-21s) from the SyAAF.

The IRIAF has no true "mix" of MiGs and "left-over" US fighters. At least
not yet - and despite all the reports so far. The IRIAF remains mainly armed
with US-built fighters, to which a relatively small number of Soviet/Russian
fighters was added in 1990/91, and now some domestic designs are added too.
The IRIAF is very unhappy with its original (and few ex-Iraqi) MiG-29s, and
these are meanwhile considered a second-line asset, together with remaining
F-5s. In order to increase the capabilities of MiG-29s earlier this year a
team of Indian technicians was called in. So, that the mainstay of their
interceptor fleet remains the F-14A, supported by ex-Iraqi Mirage F.1s.
These might be reinforced by a number of fighters purchased from a specific
country earlier this summer, but there is no confirmation for this yet so
I'll not go into any details.

They have, nevertheless, a very capable fighter-bomber component: the Su-24
are now operational with two oversized squadrons and their as well as
F-14-crews are continuously getting a lot of intensive and very realistic
training, and were meanwhile noticed in "out of area" operations too. The
most numerous type in service, however, remains the F-4Ds and F-4Es, which
have a locally-modified avionics and several completely new weapons systems
(some of these with a considerable stand-off range). Finally, there is of
course the F-5A/B/E/F/Azarakhsh family, which is now slowly increasing due
to domestic production.

Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing 747Fs,
C-130s, and Il-76s), as well as two exIraqi Adnan-1/2s AEW aircraft. the
IR.AN-140 are meanwhile in production too, and might be developed in several
different variants for the IRIAF and the IRGC. The last, the IRGC, now
("also" and "finally" - after so many years trying) operates a small air arm
(usually designated IRGCAF), equipped with An-70s, Y-12s, seven Su-25Ks, and
approx three dozens of Mi-8, AH-1, Bell 214C and Bell 206 helicopters.

One should not forget to mention the IRIAA - the Islamic Republic of Iranian
Army Aviation - that remains the hugest such arm in the whole Middle East,
having a fleet of over 400 AH-1Js (including some new, domestically built
examples), Bell 214A/C (also including an increasing number of domestically
built examples), Bell 206s, and CH-47Cs.

Finally, the IRINA - Naval Aviation - operates some 30 AS-61/SH-3Ds,
AB.212s, and RH-53s.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
snip
Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
747Fs,
snip
Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found on
the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or 5-8107.
The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.

"William Wright" wrote in message
news:kPehb.721214$uu5.119765@sccrnsc04...

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
snip
Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
747Fs,
snip
Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found on
the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or
5-8107.
The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.

See the page 294 of "Iran - Iraq War in the Air":
- the example that crashed near Madrid, in 1976, was 5-283; that one has
never got five-digit serial, introduced with the arrival of the first F-14s
in Iran, in January of the same year;

- other examples rebuilt into -2J9C or delivered in the -2J9F (these were
tankers too) configuration we 5-8103, 5-8105, 5-8107, 5-8113, (probably)
5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me; the
5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and this
did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for the
"H-3 Blitz" operation...

Don't forget that the main customer of the Saha Air is - and always was -
the IRIAS (i.e. all the three branches of the military): after all, that was
also the background on which this company was founded.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...

"William Wright" wrote in message
news:kPehb.721214$uu5.119765@sccrnsc04...

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
snip
Iran has also a sizeable tanker fleet (Boeing 707-2J9Cs and Boeing
747-2J9C), and by far the largest transport fleet in the area (Boeing
747Fs,
snip
Boeing converted three 747s to tankers but they were converted from
ex-Eastern, ex-TWA 747-131s. Pictures of 5-8105 and 5-8103 can be found
on
the web. It appears that both of these aircraft currently have civil
registrations and are operated by Saha Air Cargo. I don't the about the
third one for sure. It was probably 5-8104 which crashed in Spain or
5-8107.
The for 747-200Fs are 747-2J9. All four have civil registrations, three
being operated by Saha Air Cargo and one is parked.

See the page 294 of "Iran - Iraq War in the Air":
- the example that crashed near Madrid, in 1976, was 5-283; that one has
never got five-digit serial, introduced with the arrival of the first
F-14s
in Iran, in January of the same year;

Yes 5-283 was lost before receiving 5-8104 as a serial. A bit of notational
laziness on my part. 5-280 thru 5-287 reserialed as 5-8101 thru 5-8108
except for 5-283.

- other examples rebuilt into -2J9C or delivered in the -2J9F (these were
tankers too) configuration we 5-8103, 5-8105, 5-8107, 5-8113,
(probably)

If the 747-2J9F frieghters were converted to tankers it must have been post
delivery. I have not seen any pictures of them. The only ones I have ever
seen are 747-131s converted to 747-100F and in the pictures they are clearly
model 100s.

5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me; the
5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and this
did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for
the
"H-3 Blitz" operation...

5-8114 and 5-8115 were last EP-SHA and EP-SHH. I don't understand what you
mean by 5-5113 though. It only spent a year as Iran Air EP-NHN in the 1980s
until finally becoming Saha EP-SHB in1991. Or are you saying that Saha
operated the aircraft with a military serial number?


Don't forget that the main customer of the Saha Air is - and always was -
the IRIAS (i.e. all the three branches of the military): after all, that
was
also the background on which this company was founded.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

William,
If the 747-2J9F frieghters were converted to tankers it must have been
post
delivery. I have not seen any pictures of them. The only ones I have ever
seen are 747-131s converted to 747-100F and in the pictures they are
clearly
model 100s.

I'm not that good in finding out what is the 100F or what is the 131: I can
rather help you with an inventory of what I've seen on the photos, if that
would help.

5-8114, and 5-8115. The whereabouts of the last two are unknown to me;
the
5-8113, for example, has spent most of its career with the Saha - and
this
did not prevent it from acting as a tanker and a flying command post for
the
"H-3 Blitz" operation...

5-8114 and 5-8115 were last EP-SHA and EP-SHH. I don't understand what you
mean by 5-5113 though. It only spent a year as Iran Air EP-NHN in the
1980s
until finally becoming Saha EP-SHB in1991. Or are you saying that Saha
operated the aircraft with a military serial number?

For 5-8114 there is a photo showing it with the boom, sometimes in the 1970s
or so, and one without, at a much later date, but also without any markings
but fin flash. Almost the same can be seen for the 5-8115: there is a photo
showing it with the boom, and one showing it from the front, without any
markings but the fin flash.

Re. 5-8113: I don't know if the Saha was flying aircraft with military
serial numbers. To be honest: I never cared to find out. What I know is that
the plane was used for supporting specific combat missions, one of which was
the "H-3 Blitz".

Now, if that could ease the dillema, consider that there was a number of
occassions on which the Iranians (mis)used the Turkish airspace to bring
their tankers deep into northern Iraq. Also, bear in mind that during the
whole war the IRIAF had to keep at least one B707 and/or a B747 in tanker
configuration on permanent alert: either as tankers to support combat
operations, or to fly out and be able to pick up whatever kind of spares or
weapons for the IRIAF were acquired outside Iran. So, I actually find it
rather "normal" under the given circumstances that it happened that the
planes officially assigned to the SahaAir carried IRIAF markings, or the
other way around. Leagal or not: I don't find anything special in this.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message om...
Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?

I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
or upgraded their a/c?

Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
combat experience/training.

Kenneth Williams

Ken,

From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:

Iran:

AF: 40 F-4D/E
6 RF-4E
20 F-14A
40 MiG-29
30 SU-24MK
44 SU-20/22
45 F-5E/F
18 F-7
18 F-6
19 MIRAGE F1

Israel:

40 F-4E
53 F-4E 2000
12 RF-4E
?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
25 F-15I*
44 F-15 A/B
27 F-15 C/D
102 F-16I*
104 F-16 A/B
125 F-16 C/D
50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)

Syria:

14 SU-27
60 MiG-29/UB
40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
66 MiG-23/BN/UM
220 MiG-21
30 MiG-17F
20 SU-24MK
96 SU-20/22/BKL
70 L-39
40 L-29
15 MiG-15/UTI

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message
om...
Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?

I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
or upgraded their a/c?

Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
combat experience/training.

Kenneth Williams

Ken,

From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:

Iran:

AF: 40 F-4D/E
6 RF-4E
20 F-14A
40 MiG-29
30 SU-24MK
44 SU-20/22
45 F-5E/F
18 F-7
18 F-6
19 MIRAGE F1

Israel:

40 F-4E
53 F-4E 2000
12 RF-4E
?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
25 F-15I*
44 F-15 A/B
27 F-15 C/D
102 F-16I*
104 F-16 A/B
125 F-16 C/D
50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)

Syria:

14 SU-27
60 MiG-29/UB
40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
66 MiG-23/BN/UM
220 MiG-21
30 MiG-17F
20 SU-24MK
96 SU-20/22/BKL
70 L-39
40 L-29
15 MiG-15/UTI

Rob

Not very accurate Rob. Missed out the Iranian Su-25s. Syria has no Su-27s of
any variant. Like Algeria the Syrians had visiting Flankers purely for sales
and evaluation purposes.


TJ

"TJ" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
(Kenneth Williams) wrote in message
om...
Excuse me please, but what frontline aircraft and weapons do each of
these nations possess in the event of another Arab-Israeli war? Do
either of them have anything remotely as good as the Israelis?

I know Syria has a bunch of different MiGs and Iran has a mix of MiGs
and left-over F-4s and Tomcats, but have they made any new purchases
or upgraded their a/c?

Israel seems guaranteed of success with all the US-supplied a/c and
combat experience/training.

Kenneth Williams

Ken,

From "The Int. Directory of Military Aircraft 2002/2003" the AF
fighter/strike inventory for all 3 nations is as follows:

Iran:

AF: 40 F-4D/E
6 RF-4E
20 F-14A
40 MiG-29
30 SU-24MK
44 SU-20/22
45 F-5E/F
18 F-7
18 F-6
19 MIRAGE F1

Israel:

40 F-4E
53 F-4E 2000
12 RF-4E
?? F-4 ALL VARIANTS (IN STORAGE)
25 F-15I*
44 F-15 A/B
27 F-15 C/D
102 F-16I*
104 F-16 A/B
125 F-16 C/D
50 KFIR C-7/TC7 (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)
105 A-4N (PLUS STORAGE UNITS)

Syria:

14 SU-27
60 MiG-29/UB
40 MiG-25/PD/RB/PU
80 MiG-23/MF/ML/MS
66 MiG-23/BN/UM
220 MiG-21
30 MiG-17F
20 SU-24MK
96 SU-20/22/BKL
70 L-39
40 L-29
15 MiG-15/UTI

Rob

Not very accurate Rob. Missed out the Iranian Su-25s. Syria has no Su-27s of
any variant. Like Algeria the Syrians had visiting Flankers purely for sales
and evaluation purposes.


TJ

I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them. As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.

Being the one who published the first report about the Su-27s being seen in
Syria (in AFM volume July 2000, p.16), and the one who corrected it (as said
above, AFM volume July 2003, p.18), I have a strong feeling Robert, you're
talking about things you don't have a slightest clue about. To cite myself:

"No Flankers in Syria
Contrary to press reports in 2000, it is now known that the Syrian Arab Air
Force (SyAAF) is not operating Su-27s (amending "Four Flankers in Syria,
July 2000, pl.16). However, this does not mean that the Su-27 has never been
seen in Syria, as reported at the time. In 1999 and 2000, Moscow started
intensive efforts to sell Su-27s to Damascus and there are indications that
the Russians are still trying to do so. On no fewer than four occasions,
Su-27s have been flown to Syria in order to be demonstrated to the SyAAF
pilots and engineering officers, in order to familiarise them with the
aircraft. One such event took place in autumn 1999, and another in April
2000, when two Su-27s drawn from Russian Air Force units were deployed to
the SyAAF Academy at Minakh AB, a further two going directly to Damascus. On
both occasions, the aircraft also carried "full" SyAAF markings, and a group
of Syrian pilots was permitted to fly them, putting the aircraft through a
series of intensive and prolonged tests. Quite why the Syrians did not in
the end purchase the Su-27s remains unclear - one reason was almost
certainly the lack of funding on the Syrian side. However, Syrian sources
stress that this was not exactly the case, saying they were refusing Russian
requests to pay debts for equipment supplied during the 1980s, variously
reported to be between $2 and $5 billion.
The Syrians were unwilling to pay for equipment which in their opinion was
neither "top of the range" nor effective in combat against the Israeli. It
seems that Moscow somehow accepted this decision and orders for certain
other weapons, including AT-14 ATGMs, were accepted, with deliveries
commencing in 2002. The Su-27 deal was not, however, to be finalised.
Another problem seems to have been the fact that Rosobornexport was offering
Syria only eight Su-27s and four Su-27UBs (at an unknown price) in April
2001; one month later another offer was made, for then Su-27S and two
Su-27UBs. The Syrians, however, wanted many more Flankers. Citing a study
prepared for the SyAAF, Damascus stressed that 42 Flankers would be the
absolute minimum to be of any use to the Syrian Air Force. It remains
unknown why the Russians refused to supply this many. When negotiations with
Sukhoi fell through, the SyAAF went back to RSK MiG and ordered 22 MiG-29s
(all second-hand/used airframes, but upgraded to an as-yet-unknown
standard), together with 300 "upgraded air-to-air missiles" of unspecified
type. At least 16 of these Fulcrums were delivered to Syria in 2001 and
2002, and are believed* to be operational with one of the three units flying
the type. Interestingly, this deal was never announced by RSK MiG or made
public."

*Meanwhile it is _known_ that they are operational.

The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.

As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF markings on
a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September this
year?

Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
refubishing them in Iran?

BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
Iraqi pilots...

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585